BAB & BDB As Powers Option

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BAB & BDB As Powers Option

Postby DarkTouch » Thu Jul 24, 2003 7:01 am

Using this option, I do have one question regarding the stacking rules. I've been using it though up until now I've been working primarily with pregenerated characters so it hasn't been a problem.

In standard operation BAB and BDB can go up to PL. The difference is that there are now powers that will raise BAB while a couple of powers will raise BDB.

If you switch it to powers then BAB falls in line with the way the Amazing saves work which I consider a good thing. However, BDB now becomes the exception as as PL 10, you are now 10 points below its standard max. As I said, I've been ignoring it mostly but I'm tempted to say defense maxes at PLx2 but that just feels messy.

Any ideas on how to declare this?
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Postby slaughterj » Thu Jul 24, 2003 8:46 am

Which powers increase BDB? (Trying to get a comprehensive list posted to facilitate discussion.)

As the system is set up currently, can't people get BDB #s which are very out of whack with BAB #s? (I'm forgetting the analysis results of max BAB & BDB in the system, accounting for stats, powers, etc...)
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Postby Sagittary » Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:07 am

Note that the default 10 (using the standard rules) is -not- part of BDB. It's free, representing anyone's ability to avoid something. Other than that and the stacking limit due to powers, unless your players are maxing out BDB, there really shouldn't be a very big difference.
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Postby DarkTouch » Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:53 am

The one that comes to mind off the top of my head is SuperSpeed... but something as common as Super-Dexterity does it too.

That would make for a Defense of:
10 (Base)
+10 (BDB)
+10 (Super Dexterity)
+05 (20 Dex)
-----
35 Defense.. add in any number of feats and you can easily get up to a 40.
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Postby slaughterj » Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:02 am

DarkTouch wrote:The one that comes to mind off the top of my head is SuperSpeed... but something as common as Super-Dexterity does it too.

That would make for a Defense of:
10 (Base)
+10 (BDB)
+10 (Super Dexterity)
+05 (20 Dex)
-----
35 Defense.. add in any number of feats and you can easily get up to a 40.


Just to be absolutely clear, there exists Super-DEX, Super-Speed, and maybe something else, all of which would stack as a power for purposes of only up to PL applying to BDB, but there does not exist any equivalent BAB-increasing power, correct?

Darktouch, I see your issue with not wanting to make it PLx2 Max for BDB alone, but short of capping it like all other powers (which means that bricks will readily hit speedsters, not a good thing IMNSHO), I can't see any other solution...
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Postby mgg » Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:40 pm

Luck will increase BAB.

The thing is, there are many ways to cause a character to lose their dodge bonus altogether, which helps balance out the problem somewhat.
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Postby Max_Maze » Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:12 pm

The power that makes sure you do not lose all of your Dodge bonus (Combat Sense?) in effect increases the BDB (in conjunction with something that gives you a Dodge bonus).

Luck stacks with your BAB, so it cannot get your BAB higher than you if you bougth BAB to max.
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Postby mgg » Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:25 pm

Edit:
My original post should have said, luck will increase attack rolls. Much like super dex will increase the dodge bonus, luck will increase attack rolls. Since BAB is not a power, it has no effect on stacking limits.

Best possible attack bonus
+5 from strength/dex
+10 from BAB
+10 from luck
+?? from feats.
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Postby The BLur » Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:08 am

i personally don't see too much of a problem with it. your BDB starts out at 10 figuring to give PL0 chars a 50% chance of hitting each other. makes sense.

so hero A maxes out his BAB, while hero B maxes out his defense.

A, 20 STR = +5
raises BAB to 10 = +10
takes luck = +10
accurate attack = +5
plus 1d20

== range from 31 - 51 (once again, against def 40, he has a 50% chance)


B, 20 dex = +5
raises BDB to 10 = +10
takes super dex = +10
takes dodge declares B as his target = +2
base +10

== 37 (this could probably get a point or two higher, we'll say 40 is the max)
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Postby slaughterj » Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:09 am

mgg wrote:Luck will increase BAB.


It could increase your BDB too, yes? (No book in front of me...) Or just against 1 attacker?
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Postby The BLur » Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:13 am

it could lower his attack role, so yes it could effective raise your def against 1 attack a round
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Postby The BLur » Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:28 am

although luck is pretty expensive, combined with a 20 dex, super dex and maxed out def bonus. around 100pps or more
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Postby mgg » Fri Jul 25, 2003 11:37 am

If you buy the curse extra to affect the opponent's die rolls, yes it can add to defense, however it stacks with all defensive powers. So if you already have a +10 to your defense from superdex, you gain no defensive bonus from luck.
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Postby CPXB » Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:11 pm

The Super-Dexterity and Super-speed bonuses to Defense, which tremendous, aren't invulnerable. I say this from a person who plays a Super-dex'd out C.

First, there are a number of ways to remove dodge bonuses to Defense. Taunt, Startle and being surprised all leap to mind. Furthermore, since a high number of dexterous and fast types rely solely on Evasion for their defense, something that takes away their dodge bonus to defense means they can't use Evasion and they're generally splattered all over the battlefield. (True of area attacks, as well. The bonus to Ref saves means you take half damage, but you can't use Evasion on the damage save. So even taking five points of damage can be hard.)

Then, of course, there are mental attacks that just ignore dodge bonuses to Defense. Or Dazzle -- another good way to pin down a speedster type. The list actually goes on and on.

So, in the games I've been in, it is pretty darn easy to clean the clocks of people who rely on Super-dexterity or Super-speed to keep them out of harm's way. It works wonderfully when it works. But when it doesn't work . . . SPLAT!
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