Maps, maps, maps....

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Maps, maps, maps....

Postby Nightshyft » Tue Sep 03, 2002 4:49 pm

In all of my gaming experience, having "props" made any game much more enjoyable. Just look at such table top gaming systems as Warhammer and Warhammer 40K. These are incredibly expensive games requiring massive amouonts of money and skill( painting) to play, yet look at their popularity. All because Joe Shmoe can actually "see" what is happening without having to argue his mental perception of how it is going down. That brings me to my point, in the post GM Screen, a recent poster said that intead of an adventure in the screen, why not put such things as maps, cardboard counters, even power templates( representations of effect). THESE sort of things will definitly be used by alot of gamers. To me, MAPS is the most essential, especially themed maps( Bank, Downtown, Mall....) along with cardboard representations of different items( cars, trees, lampposts...). Making the maps out of a plastic sheeting would also be very nice( how many times have you had to rewrite a character sheet because of spilling something on it :-? ).
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Re: Maps, maps, maps....

Postby Tenzhi » Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:44 pm

Nightshyft wrote:THESE sort of things will definitly be used by alot of gamers.


And lost in a dark corner somewhere by even more of them.
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Re: Maps, maps, maps....

Postby Warchild » Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:45 pm

Nightshyft wrote:In all of my gaming experience, having "props" made any game much more enjoyable. Just look at such table top gaming systems as Warhammer and Warhammer 40K. These are incredibly expensive games requiring massive amouonts of money and skill( painting) to play, yet look at their popularity. All because Joe Shmoe can actually "see" what is happening without having to argue his mental perception of how it is going down. That brings me to my point, in the post GM Screen, a recent poster said that intead of an adventure in the screen, why not put such things as maps, cardboard counters, even power templates( representations of effect). THESE sort of things will definitly be used by alot of gamers. To me, MAPS is the most essential, especially themed maps( Bank, Downtown, Mall....) along with cardboard representations of different items( cars, trees, lampposts...). Making the maps out of a plastic sheeting would also be very nice( how many times have you had to rewrite a character sheet because of spilling something on it :-? ).



The only problem with maps for a supers gme, is that there is a lot more map warping abilities in them. Such as everyone and their uncle flying and such things.
There was a great model set of a handful of city blocks at GenCon, when Matt Forbeck was showcasing his Brave New World supers game. That was truly awseome and something i'd like to get my hands on! :)
He even had a little skit where he was executed as a member of the Defiance (the good guys in the setting). It sold me and i bought all the books (including the tishirt). :p
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Postby Strand0 » Tue Sep 03, 2002 8:10 pm

Warchild "The only problem with maps for a supers gme, is that there is a lot more map warping abilities in them."

Warchild I didn't see your problem. In fact it looks like maps, or models appeal to you.
Last edited by Strand0 on Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Draamal » Tue Sep 03, 2002 8:53 pm

I'm thinking the maps are a good idea, especially if held up to the same art standards as the rest of the book and having blank squares on the other side...
"All men die, the legends of some heroes live forever..."
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Postby Warchild » Tue Sep 03, 2002 9:43 pm

Strand0 wrote:"The only problem with maps for a supers gme, is that there is a lot more map warping abilities in them."
Warchild I didn't see your problem. In fact it looks like maps, or models appeal to you.


Maps don't work so well, especially when a lot (or all) of those particpating can fly, teleport, run super fast, etc.
What they had at the Con was a big table with carboard buildings, streets, and i think even a highway. It was quite possible to play with a more 3D type perspective because your characters could actually, say for example, fly along side the buildings or up and down with superspeed, or what have you, because it gave you a 3D look at things. But that would no doubt be WAY too expensive for anyone to dole out the greenbacks for. :)
Even that would be useful only occasionally. Probably not half the time even.
So i really don't think just a map would really cut it. Or stand up cardboard figures, even. I'm not saying that they should exist, but might be a factor in my purchasing decisions, because i don't know just how useful they'd be. I have such things from other games and i don't use them very often.
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Postby Strand0 » Wed Sep 04, 2002 1:23 am

"So i really don't think just a map would really cut it. Or stand up cardboard figures, even. ... I have such things from other games and i don't use them very often." -- Warchild

Ah, I see. :-?
How do you keep track of combat?

In my experience with 'Champions' high running speed, flying, swimming, walking through walls, and teleport are not much of a problem to keep track of on a map. In fact, I can NOT imagine how else a GM could keep track of six heroes and six villians. (or the heroes fighting 20 or 30 hydra agents.)
Most situations involve a location, so the confrontation is tied to that place. Flying heroes are usually placed on top of a die for altitude. A table space of 3' x 3' handles the action well.
Fighting in and around city streets is no harder then PCs fighting in different parts of a castle at the same time.

There are times when the extreamly fast-moving race off, but that is rare and dosn't require a map. Just book keeping. :) If a superhero is moving west at 200 miles an hour and the villain is moving at 120 miles in the same direction. When do they meet? :)

But no matter how or how fast PCs or villains move they are going some place. That is where the action will be.

Using 3D models for buildings is not something I would do. Maybe a location where the PCs would get in a fight often. ForX: the PCs Headquarter. I'd only want a permanent scale map on a grid.
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Postby Warchild » Wed Sep 04, 2002 4:48 am

Strand0 wrote:"So i really don't think just a map would really cut it. Or stand up cardboard figures, even. ... I have such things from other games and i don't use them very often." -- Warchild

Ah, I see. :-?
How do you keep track of combat?


Until 3E we never used figures or minatures and we only use them now because of the AOO rules (don't get me started!!). I think most of us are getting quite sick of them as well, they take away a lot of time from the game. We have never had a problem just using our imagination and GM description. In the rare cases where something was not clear it would be drawn out, but like i say it was rare. I gues we are on the same wavelength when it comes to things like that.. (after this many years you'd hope so, dangit!!). It turns out it was just something that WOTC "fixed" that for us, wasn't broken. :)
Another main thng about maps is that you'd need a hundred of them to suffice. Otherwise, you'd never have enough to hanlde all the different situations. I just stick to marker and erase method on our clear map and that has sufficed for years, when we needed it.
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Postby Tenzhi » Wed Sep 04, 2002 5:36 am

I don't use maps myself. And as for the AoO rules in 3E... I mostly ignore them. They mostly only come into play (in my campaigns) if a Spellcaster is casting a spell near someone hostile... I find that it saves me a lot of headaches to ignore them, and I sincerely hope that - as with other d20 games like CoC - AoOs are left out of M&M except perhaps as optional rules. But if they are in the game, I suppose I will largely ignore them anyway.
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Postby Steve Kenson » Wed Sep 04, 2002 6:16 am

Tenzhi wrote:I sincerely hope that - as with other d20 games like CoC - AoOs are left out of M&M except perhaps as optional rules.

There are no attacks of opportunity in M&M. They just didn't fit in with the fast-and-furious comic book action of the game.
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Postby Warchild » Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:24 am

Steve Kenson wrote:
Tenzhi wrote:I sincerely hope that - as with other d20 games like CoC - AoOs are left out of M&M except perhaps as optional rules.

There are no attacks of opportunity in M&M. They just didn't fit in with the fast-and-furious comic book action of the game.


God bless you Steve. :)
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Postby marvelman » Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:16 am

I actually would love to dump minis in my game but my players love using them so much that I can't. They love attacks of oppurtunity, even if the enemy gets a critical on them and chops their head off. LOL

I have actually been assisting in developing a more cinematic D20 system with a critical fumble chart that provides AOO. Not saying the title yet but the mechanic I can preview...

You roll a 1 on an attack roll, ok you screwed up royally. Roll a D10 (D20 was too high a variable) and on a 1-6 nothing happens, no backlash. on a 7-8 you drop your weapon on a 9 you ope yourself to an AOO and on a 10 you are left wide open and caught flat footed for an AOO. THis drops the need for minis but keeps AOOs as a nice little option.

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Postby Steve Kenson » Wed Sep 04, 2002 9:07 am

marvelman wrote:I have actually been assisting in developing a more cinematic D20 system with a critical fumble chart that provides AOO. Not saying the title yet but the mechanic I can preview...

Hmmm, that would be an interesting optional rule for M&M, for folks interested in adding fumbles (and AoO) to their game. (There are no critical fumble rules in the game, although an attack roll of 1 still always misses.)
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Postby Hero4Hire » Wed Sep 04, 2002 9:22 am

Warchild wrote:Another main thng about maps is that you'd need a hundred of them to suffice. Otherwise, you'd never have enough to hanlde all the different situations. I just stick to marker and erase method on our clear map and that has sufficed for years, when we needed it.


Looking through my gaming stuff I noticed I probably *have* a hundred maps for super hero games.
(Lotsa Marvel ones)
I wonder if I can get a clear grid to lay over them that would be to scale.

Anyone ever try this?
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Postby Wolverspleen » Wed Sep 04, 2002 9:29 am

Well, I've been gaming for 20+ years and for pretty much most of that time I've incorporated minis in some way, shape or form into my gaming. Imagination is great but to me(and to most people I've met that aren't on this forum/topic) it adds something to be able to see where you are, where your allies are, where your enemies are and everything else that lies in between. We're actually planning on using the heroclix minis for figures and likely their maps/props for scenes. For those scenes that don't fit into the maps they provide we're coming up with a large blank map to which we can use our imagination to people.

I just don't believe that because someone uses minis it means they have less of an imagination than someone who doesn't. But that's me.
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Postby Warchild » Wed Sep 04, 2002 10:02 am

Wolverspleen wrote:I just don't believe that because someone uses minis it means they have less of an imagination than someone who doesn't. But that's me.


I didn't say that. Just that we have never had a problem when we didn't use minatures. In fact it is pain in the butt now that we are and takes up more time than its worth.
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Postby Nightshyft » Wed Sep 04, 2002 4:13 pm

I cannot beleive that NOT having a mapping system would be prefered? Isn't there ever a dissargreement about "where exactly" the pc's are? I was always ccriticized for not drawing out my map( we used a dry erase board) in enough detail. Furthermore, this is not D&D where alot of combat takes place in barren dungeons or untamed wilderness. I imagine that alot of the action in M&M will take place in cities. Cities with THOUSANDS of innocent bystanders, cities with scores of vehicles moving about the "battlefield", cities with hundreds of buildings to get in the way. Say you erstwhile heroes are in the local mall when some superbaddies decide they are going to have some nasty fun, nevermind trying to keep track of the heroes and villians...what abot Joe Shmoe and his family that were at the local mall to pick up some new designer jeans for teenage Sally Shmoe? Where are they? Not going to use the Mall or for that matter innocent bystanders? Then your not playing a SUPER HERO game. In my opinion, that is the whole essence of the SH game, saving those that can't save theirselves. Take out the IB's and you simply change the nature of the game from Heroes to Gladiators, only the strongest survive.
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Postby Tenzhi » Wed Sep 04, 2002 4:42 pm

Sure, I'll use malls and the like. And I'll use Innocent Bystanders when I feel it's dramatically important - which is how it usually happens in comics. When the Avengers or the JLA throwdown with a big Supervillain, even in a heavily populated area like Metropolis or NYC, much of the time they get knocked through buildings and the like without any bystanders coming into the picture.

And I don't use miniatures because, in my experience, it interferes with the flow of the game. The game suddenly shifts from roleplaying to a strategy/war game and combat becomes mechanical and dull.
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Postby Warchild » Wed Sep 04, 2002 5:32 pm

Nightshyft wrote:I cannot beleive that NOT having a mapping system would be prefered? Isn't there ever a dissargreement about "where exactly" the pc's are? I was always ccriticized for not drawing out my map( we used a dry erase board) in enough detail. Furthermore, this is not D&D where alot of combat takes place in barren dungeons or untamed wilderness. I imagine that alot of the action in M&M will take place in cities. Cities with THOUSANDS of innocent bystanders, cities with scores of vehicles moving about the "battlefield", cities with hundreds of buildings to get in the way. Say you erstwhile heroes are in the local mall when some superbaddies decide they are going to have some nasty fun, nevermind trying to keep track of the heroes and villians...what abot Joe Shmoe and his family that were at the local mall to pick up some new designer jeans for teenage Sally Shmoe? Where are they? Not going to use the Mall or for that matter innocent bystanders? Then your not playing a SUPER HERO game. In my opinion, that is the whole essence of the SH game, saving those that can't save theirselves. Take out the IB's and you simply change the nature of the game from Heroes to Gladiators, only the strongest survive.


We have all that and more and have NEVER needed minatures. Like i say, we occassionally will draw something out if there is a real question. But they are rare.
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Postby Strand0 » Wed Sep 04, 2002 6:12 pm

I SEE, again. :D
Very interesting. And I would have to say the the Champions and D&D I've played over the years does change gears when combat starts. We get mechanistic and wargame-like, losing the mental agility of conversing with a foe. The gamers (I play with) look forward to this chance of showing their (own) skill and the power of their PCs.
:( This does feel forced and stilted to me. But it is the way the group plays.

Now. Taking that in to account...
Instead of map(s) to the scale of miniatures, a thin book of several maps on a smaller scale. The GM can then have a solid idea of layout, could show the players if there is confussion, and a GM who likes to draw out maps could copy it. :oops: Would this be of any use?

The James Bond 007 rpg had a book that detail famous locations around the world. I should try to find a copy. :cry:
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Postby marvelman » Wed Sep 04, 2002 10:50 pm

Steve Kenson wrote:
marvelman wrote:I have actually been assisting in developing a more cinematic D20 system with a critical fumble chart that provides AOO. Not saying the title yet but the mechanic I can preview...

Hmmm, that would be an interesting optional rule for M&M, for folks interested in adding fumbles (and AoO) to their game. (There are no critical fumble rules in the game, although an attack roll of 1 still always misses.)


Hey man, tell you what... feel free to use it, create a sidebar and give me some small credit somewhere... please... I am begging you... just this once... I will never ask again....

D20 scale

1-Open to attack and flat footed
2-4 Open to free attack
5-7 Drop weapon etc
8-20 De nada

LOL

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Postby Strand0 » Thu Sep 05, 2002 1:22 am

Warchild?
How many player do you usually have?
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Postby Warchild » Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:52 am

Strand0 wrote:Warchild?
How many player do you usually have?


Currently i game 2/week. Once with 3 of us, once with 6 people.
Its been anyway between 3-8 people in the group over the years. It has varied quite a bit over the years. I was in a 13 player group on campus here for a while, back in the day. What a @#$^% mess that was! I'm glad they didn't use minatures, there wouldn't have been room for us! :)
It was after that i decided i didn't want to be in a group of more than 6 people, 5 being perfect (IMM).
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Postby Strand0 » Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:27 pm

I wish I could sit in on one of your games. My group's style is so geared to minatures that I could not do more than 2 players without a battlemap.
Last edited by Strand0 on Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Topic

Postby Strand0 » Thu Sep 05, 2002 8:25 pm

Anyway, maps! Now that we know not everyone will need or want them, which maps would be useful.

Bank -- Gas station -- Lobby and offices -- Strip mall -- Two story indoor mall (Big map) -- Park with play ground -- City intersection -- Airport terminal (big map) -- Docks with ship -- Auditorium/theater

:-? That's more then I fought I would think of off the top of my head.
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