Punishing a fellow Player's character

[vonpenguin]

Warning Long post.

Hello. Now before we get started let me just say I am not doing this out of pettiness or spite and am trying my best to not cause bad blood or OOC drama. But it's needed in character. See I am playing the lord of a freshly ennobled house in the Stormlands. We're playing a highly religious house and most of the PCs are related in some form or fashion. Now at the start our Septon came to us complaining about a heretic preaching in the sept. Turns out he was a red priest sent by Stannis Baratheon's wife. After sending a Raven to him and our Liege Renly Baratheon we asked the priest to stay in our Castle till we got word back. We got word from the Lady but not either of the lords asking us to treat him as an honored guest and that he was there on her orders. Not wanting to annoy Stannis and having no countering orders from Renly we released him asking polity that he keep the preaching to a minimum, he agreed and all was well for a bit until we mustered our troops to help a neighboring house and noticed a few of our crusaders were missing, we found their bodies, killed with a morning star and questioned the priest about it, he claimed they attacked him and he defended himself. Believing him we tried to find out what was going on, when one of the other characters, the lord's nephew and captain of the guard, started fidgeting and looking guilty. We questioned him and he admitted asking the soldiers to scare the priest but denied ordering them to attack.

Now as Lord I can not allow someone, even a beloved family member, to go behind my back and get some of my most loyal and experienced troops killed, even if I don't like the guy they attacked. I was thinking some public punishment, perhaps flogging or time in a stocks or something, I don't know what would be appropriate for the death of three men though. I don't want to make him take the black or execute him though as this is a fellow PC and I do have IC reasons to keep him around.

[Canarr]

Hmmm... difficult situation. In my mind, punishing a noble - especially from the family of the ruling lord - like a common thief by flogging and/or publicly humiliating him, is a bit inappropriate. No idea what an appropriate punishment would be, though... does he have his own lands and/or income? If so, you could make him pay reparations for the dead soldiers.

Personally, I'd take a look at that priest; I mean, how the hell did he kill three experienced soldiers? Unless they came at him one after the other, he shouldn't have been able to take them - certainly not without injury to himself. Does he always go armed and armored? Maybe you can use that to open a murder trial against the priest - justice all around! Punish your nephew for going against your orders, and punish the priest for murdering three soldiers. Might be a good opportunity to get rid of him.

[vonpenguin]

Unfortunately the nephew doesn't have his own lands. The family was raised up due to the currant lord's actions during Robert's rebellion, we've been around maybe 15 years and have little in the ways of lands or property being moderately successful hedge knights beforehand. I'm thinking maybe demote him from captain of the guard to just the officer in charge of a single one of our units. Would sting but not be horrible I think. I don't know. It's a balancing act, he needs to be punished but I don't want bad blood in or out of character.

And yes. We're trying to at least exile the priest but he keeps playing word games and making things difficult. The fact that we don't want to feel the Baratheon's wrath is the only reason he's still breathing after this though.

Also of note. The soldiers were poorly armed and dressed as peasants. Part of a ploy to get him to violate our agreement to hare him only preach to those that ask.

[Paedrig]

I would say your idea of giving him a lower military rank (together with some very clear words) might be enough - or at least COULD be enough. In the end it is mostly up to you.
You might also make clear that he must show his willingless to learn of his failures in the future not only by words but also by deeds.
However penalties like flogging etc. are always a tricky thing if noble (and especially members of your own family) are involved. This should be the last option, only for the worst crimes - because flogging a noble could also had some bad influence for the standing of the whole family...

[Zeroed]

Here's a suggestion:

Since he is a noble, as the Lord of the House, I would "incite" to him to go to the local Septon to confess his guilt about trying to protect the Faith against an heretic. As a penance, he could take a vigil to reflect upon his deeds and be required to give a generous donation to the Sept, actual coins or something maybe like his arms and armors (or other worldly possessions of equivalent worth) so that they can sell them and provide help and care to the community. That way, he would look not only pious (he tried to protect the Faith against an heretic), but also generous and repentant, which would not stain too deeply his public image as a noble. And he would be cleared of his sins by the Seven, which is the most important part of that plan.

[AGlumSon]

You say you are the Lord, does that mean you are also the narrator?

If not, this is exactly the reason why hierarchies often don't work in RPG's (and why it is really recommended that the Lord in SIFRP is a narrrator character)... If you are a PC let the punishment of the other PC be decided by the narrator.

If you are the narrator, don't be too harsh on the player. He has had to endure the failure of his plan and the backlash of this already automatically means loss of standing within the House. This is something a narrator can resolve through different means than permanently stripping him of any honours or titles and definitely no corporal punishment.

If you are such a religious house let him atone for his disrespect and recklessness by having him make a small pilgrimage or do some other act of piety to set things right again. This way your House will also not be forced into punishing one of his high-ranking members for events that are ultimately caused by an "infidel".

[Flagg]

You say you are the Lord, does that mean you are also the narrator?

If not, this is exactly the reason why hierarchies often don't work in RPG's

This is tangental, but in my own experience, having a clear leader among the PCs has tended to lead to better teamwork, and less bickering and indecision in the games I've run (not SIFRP specifically, but many other RPGs), versus having a flat structure.

[Eisen]

Nothing entertains the smallfolk like a public execution!

[Legate]

Here's a suggestion:

Since he is a noble, as the Lord of the House, I would "incite" to him to go to the local Septon to confess his guilt about trying to protect the Faith against an heretic. As a penance, he could take a vigil to reflect upon his deeds and be required to give a generous donation to the Sept, actual coins or something maybe like his arms and armors (or other worldly possessions of equivalent worth) so that they can sell them and provide help and care to the community. That way, he would look not only pious (he tried to protect the Faith against an heretic), but also generous and repentant, which would not stain too deeply his public image as a noble. And he would be cleared of his sins by the Seven, which is the most important part of that plan.

I like this, and the demotion from Captain of the Guard; it isn't anything he can't work to reacquire with a little time.

Also, I agree look at the priest, if the troops were lightly armed and not armoured then spattering them with a morning star could be construed as "unnecessary force" I would think. You may have to correct me on this, but the Red Priests are a martial order correct? Surely, he would have the skill in unarmed combat (ie a marital art of some kind) to have subdued his opponents rather then killing them. I think you would have enough here to request Renly to open a Court to present your grievances against the priest, and ask that he be removed from your household to prevent any further discord.

[Paedrig]

While Tyros of Myr (or how was his name) did certainly have some martial qualities (beside drinking and whoring), i do not think that the Red Priest are a martial order per se.
But you are right slaughtering these men might be considered as unnecessary force - it is at least a good excuse to step up the measures against this priest.
And the Lord did have (in my opinion) certainly the right to urge (or even to order) the priest to go away after this unfortunate bloodshed...

[Cap_T]

“It's a balancing act, he needs to be punished but I don't want bad blood in or out of character.”

Regarding the above statement. I think its important to remember the most important rule is have fun. It goes for both you and for the other players. I think it’s important to understand what both of you want from the game. If you want a game where all the pc act as team then going behind another PCs back is not good form and you will need to talk about it, and you will probably end up having to compromise. If the player expects some player character v.s player character conflict then the nephews player has totake whatever comes his characters way.


If I was playing the lord I and could find not find IC reasons to keep him around then, yeah we are heading down the Taking the Black root at the very least. This nephew of mine is obviously prone to failure and as lord I just cant except failure. Besides his next character may have better luck getting rid of the red priest …

[Legate]

Having thought a little more on it, I am not really sure if "unneccessary force" would be a valid charge. What qualifies as unneccessary force in a society that allows men like Gregor Clegane to walk around free? Though, a thought did occur to me on the subject. You could argue that you are now out the cost of training those 3 men in a Court and that the Priest should have to pay thereturn on investment back to the players house (which given the crass nature of Westeros this might be a better legal fit.) In other words sue his ass.

Agreed balance is important, and it is in the end a game with the over all goal of fun. If I were playing the Lord I might take the nephew's player aside and discuss the matter. If I were the player (the Nephew)I don't think I would be too against either the penitent or the demotion ideas above. Just reinforce that once he has learned his lesson his position will be waiting for him.

This is a very minor #^*! up on the players part; taking the Black would not be a appropriate punishment IMO.

[DaimosofRedstone]

He only got three commoners killed.
That is not the issue.
It was their job, their meaning if you will to die for your house. Their destiny.
The issue is that he went behind your back and against your wishes.

Flog him and you basically take his noble status away. He will still be on de jure but he won't command respect anymore. Nobles were even executed differently and there is a reason for that.
It comes mainly down to a matter of face. You want to save face by punishing him but still let him keep face.
Let him come into court, kneel before you, confess and take a penance.
His wrongdoing will have been punished, your authority reestablished and reaffirmed and face saved.

[Legate]

"He only got three commoners killed."

This could be debable, they were mentioned as crusaders which could mean knights. Perhaps vonpenguin could specifiy what class the troops came from. If they were peasent levies then I would argue the lost funds in training and feeding them (ie claim unnecessary damage to property.) However, if they were indeed knights (even lowly hedge knights) that would bring a whole new colour to the situation. Now, you have, potenetially, other noble/powerful families involved. Hmmm,...

Either way corporal punishment would not be called for in this case, IMO for the reasons stated above.

[Pytorb]

One other thing to consider. Has the attack on the Red Preist been acknowledged as a public crime, which might therefore require public punishment? If the attack has been somehow covered up and the soldier's deaths explained away with a different story then publicly punishing the PC in any way may look odd.

[DaimosofRedstone]

@Legate:
It is like stealing from your own store.
Of course there is damage from your theft.
But it is yours anyway, so it evens out.
Same if you get your family's troops killed.

And even these were minor nobles, he did not kill them and he did not even intend to get them killed. Blame for that goes to the Red Priest.
What he is on the block for is disobeying his liege's wishes/commands.
On top of that he is family and there seem to be no ulterior motives.
So the whole deal is mainly about showing who is boss without antagonizing part of the family or seeming to heavy-handed (which could be seen as a sign of insecurity which could be seen as a sign of weakness).
So confessing and accepting whatever (light) penance or penalty the lord wishes to put upon him is pretty much what should come of it.
It is more a 'slap on the wrist' than 'hacking of the hand' kind of situation.

[Legate]

Could not agree with you more DaimosofRedstone. AFAI would be concerned here if I were the lord would be how do I punish him for going behind my bckc like that. He had good intents, but the plan went wrong. So, what is a fit punishment in this case? As I said above I like the penance and demotion (temporary). The way I see it the priest was experienced enough to be trained in morning star, he should have been able to come to some non lethal solution to the situation (but then he thought he was figting peasents), but, as you say the deaths of the soldiers is at his feet. What I am just trying to think of is how the situation can be turned to the lord of the house profit (ie can we use this to legally get this priest out of our hair without incurring the wrath of Lord Renly or Lady Stannis Baratheon?)

[Zorbeltuss]

In Westeros, Justice isn't about law, justice is about playing the game of thrones.

If nobody knows that the family member is behind it, do not change that.
If the red priest killed those men and you want him gone, charge him with murder. He's not high born so he can't demand trial by combat, so you're free to hang him.

Of course, you may not wish to piss off Lady Selyse, though you can always hide behind Renly's skirts if you like.

[Flagg]

In Westeros, Justice isn't about law, justice is about playing the game of thrones.

If nobody knows that the family member is behind it, do not change that.

It's not a matter of justice in this case. It's about giving the PC a kick in the ass for defying his lord. The consequences don't need to be public, but they need to happen.

[Eisen]

Of course, you may not wish to piss off Lady Selyse, though you can always hide behind Renly's skirts if you like.

lol best answer so far imho

[vonpenguin]

In Westeros, Justice isn't about law, justice is about playing the game of thrones.

Problem with that is that the lord here is both pious and honor-bound, he would consider it a matter of both to resolve this issue properly. The demotion and penitence combo works.

Oh new idea, have the two responsible parties trial by combat each other. It works because they are effectively accusing each other, the captain says they were only ordered to threaten not get physical, and the Priest claims to have been attacked unprovoked. Two birds one stone.

[Flagg]

I don't believe that can be imposed. They'd have to both agree.

[vonpenguin]

Intrigue time?

[Legate]

Hi
To know the rocking news in every field visit to this site….
Every news to every field is available in this site………….’
It is the one of the best site that give you every news for india and other… so visit this site and get latest news……….. thank you

Eh?

[Canarr]

Spam. Already reported it.