A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

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A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Flagg » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:46 pm

Do we have any examples in the books of a squire being of the same house as the knight he is serving?

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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Legate » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:14 pm

Ser Hugh of the Vale was Jon Arryns squire before he was knighted.
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Flagg » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:32 am

Ser Hugh was an Arryn?
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby DaimosofRedstone » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:50 am

No, not that i know of. He was affiliated with House Arryn.

@original question:
I do not remember any. Which makes sense since squiring is meant to foster goodwill and bring houses closer.
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Zorbeltuss » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:43 am

It's probably common enough in lesser branches and houses. The one example I can recall from the books is Egg being supposed to squire for his brother Daemon in "The hedge knight".
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby DaimosofRedstone » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:48 am

I think you would see in those families where you do not want to pass of the sole heir to some other house because you fear for his safety and if you are so poor/insignificant/reviled you can find no one to take your sons on as squires.
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Kajani » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:03 am

We did not hear anything (as far as I know) about another house in which the Mountain has served. He seem to be present in his own house even before he was knighted, but I do not know this for sure...
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Paedrig » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:33 am

I think it is some sort of (unwritten) common law (or more a tradition) to serve in another house than your own.
Become a squire in a allied or higher household allways give good opportunities for getting connection/ ellbow rubbing/ get a more "worldy flair" than at home in your small tower etc.
So the question would arise...why not using this possibilities?

Certainly beeing a squire in your own house is not forbidden by traditions or something like that but perhaps a little bit...dubious if there is no good cause (f. e. live and death danger/ perhaps a very prominent knight in your family which take you as squire).

Without a plausible cause there might bealways the question/rumors WHY your parents did not want to send you away to another house - serious missbehaving/ dark secret/ great scandal or perhaps simply your unsufficient abilities...
Of course this might be completely unfair and untrue - but allways something your enemies could use to smear it in your face.
Like beeing a squire of an very infamous knight or house.
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Legate » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:34 am

Going on what was shown in the first season of the TV series at the Joust of the Hand Ser Hugh's shield bore the crest of House Arryn. That says to me that he was indeed an Arryn.
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Zorbeltuss » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:47 am

But if he was, why is he Ser hugh of the vale rather than Ser Hugh Arryn?

Edit: In the books, he does not use the Arryn arms.
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Flagg » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:28 am

The wiki shows Ser Hugh's arms being a white crescent on blue. That's similar to House Arryn's, but not identical. I don't recall what was shown in the TV show.
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby DaimosofRedstone » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:44 am

Paedrig wrote:I think it is some sort of (unwritten) common law (or more a tradition) to serve in another house than your own.
Become a squire in a allied or higher household allways give good opportunities for getting connection/ ellbow rubbing/ get a more "worldy flair" than at home in your small tower etc.
So the question would arise...why not using this possibilities?

Certainly beeing a squire in your own house is not forbidden by traditions or something like that but perhaps a little bit...dubious if there is no good cause (f. e. live and death danger/ perhaps a very prominent knight in your family which take you as squire).

Without a plausible cause there might bealways the question/rumors WHY your parents did not want to send you away to another house - serious missbehaving/ dark secret/ great scandal or perhaps simply your unsufficient abilities...
Of course this might be completely unfair and untrue - but allways something your enemies could use to smear it in your face.
Like beeing a squire of an very infamous knight or house.

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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby superbat_99 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:29 am

I think in the poorer families sons or younger brothers would squire in their own families, but then they may have just squired for a knight that was employed by the family.
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Legate » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:35 pm

In the jousting scene he clearly has the same hearldry as Ser Vardis, when he duelled Bronn, (Cresent and Bird on a field of Blue.) Could have been a continuity error, but since Martin had a detailed hand in the production...::shrug::

As to Ser Hugh being called of the Vale, knights often recieved such "titles" like this when they get their spurs (ie Knight of the Realm, of the Commonwealth, etc.) Ser Vardis probably held the title "knight of the Vale" as well
(even though he wasn't directly called that.)

I don't beleive there is any rule (in the books or historical) about how and who is chosen as a squire. If a Banner man came to his lord and asked to have his son squire for the lord (or the lords son) the request could be accepted as much as if one of the lords own family made the request of him. That was a little more confusing then I liked, but hopfully you can follow what I mean. :wink:
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby DaimosofRedstone » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:16 pm

Legate wrote:
I don't beleive there is any rule (in the books or historical) about how and who is chosen as a squire. If a Banner man came to his lord and asked to have his son squire for the lord (or the lords son) the request could be accepted as much as if one of the lords own family made the request of him. That was a little more confusing then I liked, but hopfully you can follow what I mean. :wink:

Well, define 'rule', but historical you WANTED to have your son squire for someone else. It gave you all kinds of opportunities to trade favors, make acquaintances, etc.
And it also seemed kinda off if you did NOT send your son off.
What is wrong with your son?
Or don't you have any friends who would be willing to take him on?
Why don't you have any friends? And what horrible things did your son do that nobody wants him as a squire?
So you did so horrible things that nobody wants to take your son on and your son is such a sick creep that nobody wants him near their courts?!
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Legate » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:48 pm

DaimosofRedstone wrote:
Legate wrote:
I don't beleive there is any rule (in the books or historical) about how and who is chosen as a squire. If a Banner man came to his lord and asked to have his son squire for the lord (or the lords son) the request could be accepted as much as if one of the lords own family made the request of him. That was a little more confusing then I liked, but hopfully you can follow what I mean. :wink:

Well, define 'rule', but historical you WANTED to have your son squire for someone else. It gave you all kinds of opportunities to trade favors, make acquaintances, etc.
And it also seemed kinda off if you did NOT send your son off.
What is wrong with your son?
Or don't you have any friends who would be willing to take him on?
Why don't you have any friends? And what horrible things did your son do that nobody wants him as a squire?
So you did so horrible things that nobody wants to take your son on and your son is such a sick creep that nobody wants him near their courts?!



Really? References?
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby DaimosofRedstone » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:24 pm

Did i lose it there?
I thought examples would be nice- :(
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby coldwind » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:44 pm

Legate wrote:In the jousting scene he clearly has the same hearldry as Ser Vardis, when he duelled Bronn, (Cresent and Bird on a field of Blue.) Could have been a continuity error, but since Martin had a detailed hand in the production...::shrug::

As to Ser Hugh being called of the Vale, knights often recieved such "titles" like this when they get their spurs (ie Knight of the Realm, of the Commonwealth, etc.) Ser Vardis probably held the title "knight of the Vale" as well
(even though he wasn't directly called that.)

I don't beleive there is any rule (in the books or historical) about how and who is chosen as a squire. If a Banner man came to his lord and asked to have his son squire for the lord (or the lords son) the request could be accepted as much as if one of the lords own family made the request of him. That was a little more confusing then I liked, but hopfully you can follow what I mean. :wink:


Be wary of trying to use the TV show as a reference to prove a point from the books (and vice versa). There are enough differences of key facts that while similar (and both good), they cannot support one another.

The Hedge Knight clearly establishes that in the book world, only a son can use his father's (ie, the House) shield as his personal shield. In addition, many non-heirs use variations of the House shield as their own - in particular, Ser Loras Tyrell of the books has three golden roses on his own (as the third child), but in the HBO series, he uses the plain, single golden rose of House Tyrell. Ser Hugh of the Vale in the books uses a silver cresent on blue (certainly as a nod to House Arryn), but in the show uses the full on Arryn crest.

The likely cause is to save on props (and perhaps more importantly, to save on time having to explain such a minute trivia), the show likely dropped the restrictions on who can bear certain arms. It's also a quick shorthand - you see an Arryn crest, you know it is a knight from the Vale, rather than require extra speech identifying random knight #345 as such. Rather similar to how all the Stark/northmen have similar style armor, as do the Lannister ones, etc... Sr Vardis Egen using the Arryn crest during the trial by combat is just that - he was representing his Lord Robyn Arryn's interests in the battle.

Of course, this doesn't completely remove the possibility in the show that Ser Hugh is an Arryn (if only because he's not identified as not being an Arryn), but if he is, it's rather suspicious he wasn't mentioned when Catelyn took Tyrion to the Vale, and it'd potentially throw even more complication in Littlefinger's explanation of Harry the Heir - an already complicated connection to get across verbally, so why they'd make it more difficult seems odd.
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Paedrig » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:21 am

By the way in the campaign guide (and most information about people which are mentioned in the book comes from the books of Martin as far as i know) it is mentioned, that the squire of the Lord of Gulltown is his own youngest son.
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Carriker » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:04 am

It certainly is possible. But the tradition of squiring has some good reasons for sending the squire out to someone else's family.

It usually started with fostering. A young boy was sent to another, allied House, there to be taught by the lady of the house how to wait at table (which taught the boy table manners and how to recognize status), proper manners and bearing, how to treat ladies and the like. The squire also often began some training at arms with his host's master-at-arms or other household fighters.

Once he's done, many young noble boys return to their family homes, well-taught and (in theory) conscious of their dignity and responsibilities, as well as cognizant of their family's place in the scheme of things.

Other boys, if they show an aptitude and inclination towards martial endeavors, and if they are in an area with a strong knighthood tradition, might become squires. Sometimes, this is to a knight of the house who fostered him, but the ideal situation is a strong, well-known knight (preferably of noble blood) allied with the boy's family. This knight then takes him on as an apprentice, basically, teaching him not just how to fight and help arm the knight, but also about honor and what a fighting man needs to know about the world, including politics, chivalry and how vassaldom works. The squire accompanies the knight everywhere, even onto the field of battle.

In theory, that knight will likely one day reward his squire with a knighthood by his own hand in return for his years of loyal service and learning his task well. Occasionally, a squire who performs so well, or manages an outstanding feat of noteworthy valor, or who simply has a powerful patron, will be knighted by someone else (this is basically what the Anointed Benefit is, for the record).

This entire system is designed to get a young noble boy out into the world, to meet his family's allies and to form alliances himself. But it is also intended to "make a man" of the boy. The family that has the fostering of a boy is seen, on some level, as responsible for who the boy eventually becomes - if he is craven, treacherous, weak or otherwise contemptible, his blood family and his fostering family alike are shamed. That's why Sam Tarly had such a devil of a time in his own fostering, and why his fostering family sent him home in shame - because they knew they'd never be able to make a "proper man" out of him, and would rather shame House Tarly rather than risk their own honor for failing to "fix" him. Likewise, the knight who takes on a squire is directly responsible for the kind of man he becomes, in society's eyes.

So, the reason most houses try to find allies to foster and squire their boys is simple: the assumption in society is that if you didn't do so, your son has some flaw that you didn't want your allies to see. Your family bears the whole responsibility for his limitations, and if you didn't send him to your allies, you were either coddling him or he's so flawed that you were too shamed to do so.

Thus, it is possible for a squire to serve a knight of his own family, there is often a slight social stigma attached to it. Everyone will always wonder why you weren't sent to someone else. Is he simple? Unmanly? etc.

Make sense?
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Kajani » Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

I wonder how that works in the North were no real knighthood exist. Ned Stark and his brother Brandon were both send to other houses in young years (but Robb Stark was not, by the way, although he was old enough I think), and I do not know how that looks for the generations of Starks before...
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby DaimosofRedstone » Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:34 pm

Squiring is older than Knighthood. And the roots from which it springs, namely the feudal system, is alive and vibrant in the North.

Edit:
To be precise squiring started as an apprenticeship of a boy to a warrior. The boy tends to the warriors weapons, watches his back in combat and carries his gear and tries to get the warrior of the field when he has been hacked bloody.
With warriors evolving into warlords and warlords evolving into a noble class this custom changed to squiring.
In the North the Feudal obligation of a Lord to defend his subjects sword in hand is very much intact.
And that what makes a knight and also the warrior class structures that include squiring.
In every sense the lords of the North are Knights as you would understand them, expect for that little bit of being consecrated to the Seven.
Last edited by DaimosofRedstone on Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Carriker » Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:40 pm

Kajani wrote:I wonder how that works in the North were no real knighthood exist. Ned Stark and his brother Brandon were both send to other houses in young years (but Robb Stark was not, by the way, although he was old enough I think), and I do not know how that looks for the generations of Starks before...


Well, they were fostered in other Houses, not squired to individuals.
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Paedrig » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:23 am

But i think in reality the difference between "been squire at a castle" or "beeing fostered by the house which rules the castle" might not be very big.
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Re: A Squire From a Knight's Own House?

Postby Zorbeltuss » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:05 am

If you're of high birth, probably not. Where Andal traditions are followed, it's likely the same thing.
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