Death to the Mountian!

[Eisen]

I know we haven't posted a campagin log but I just had to report on our group's epic win. The Mountian that Rides, Ser Gregor Clegane is dead!

Our house hosted a tournament, the Mountian was defeated in the melee (by a really lucky shot from a NPC) Our Master of Ships/Pirate Reyno decided to taunt him a little about his defeat. Naturally Clegane isn't the most level headed of folks and he attacked! Renyo proceeded to make a fool out Gregor using a sickening combination of water dancing, acrobatic defence, and knockdowns. The mountian suffered several wounds before yelling for his entourage to attack the rest of the party. (We were simply trying to sit back and enjoy the fight!) It's tough fighting but the group manages to dispatch his flunkies while Reyno keeps inflicting wounds on Ser Gregor. Eventually Clegane has taken so many wounds that he is forced to surrender. We escort him to the duengeon and finish him off. Such a shame he died of his wounds like that

Victory!

[Gurkhal]

Congrats on taking down the Mountain. It sounds like it was quite some fight.

[DaimosofRedstone]

The most noble, able and courageous knight of Westeros taken down by foreign pirate scum.
My heart bleeds.

[Tao Jones]

The most noble, able and courageous knight of Westeros taken down by foreign pirate scum.
My heart bleeds.

Indeed, this aggression will not stand! Ser was the finest of us all, he was.

[DaimosofRedstone]

A bit of a temper on him, but then which great man is not a bit peculiar?

[BeardedDork]

This actually brings up an issue my group noticed last week. A group that contains Ser Gregor Clegane as written in the Campaign Guide, (we don't have the GOT edition of that one) is still only a minor combat challenge with his combat defense of 10. The only character that comes up as anything close to a major challenge is The Red Viper of Dorne and at 14 he still falls just short. Has anybody come up with a different scale to determine rewards for combat challenges?

[Zorbeltuss]

The benchmark thing is crap, defense is a single parameter, and the most difficult one to raise. It's much easier to build offense, and AR is very important too. Narrator is better off judging how challenging the encounter truly was.

[Kajani]

I would agree. The Combat Defence of Ser Gregor might not be very good, but this mean not, he is not a VERY deadly foe. I mean, striking with a Greatsword in one hand and wearing full plate...

By the way why mudering the Mountain in this way (aside from the fact that he is a bastard who deserve it)? Why not getting ransom or trying to come to terms with the master of this crazy dog? A Lannister always pay his dept...

[BeardedDork]

The benchmark thing is crap, defense is a single parameter, and the most difficult one to raise. It's much easier to build offense, and AR is very important too. Narrator is better off judging how challenging the encounter truly was.

Since we realized that the benchmark thing was kind of useless I've just been going by my gut, It's been working out OK but I have at least one player who prefers hard and fast rules.

[Tao Jones]

I always did think Gregor got the short stick in the original writeups. Athletics 4 (Strength 2B)? I don't know how they thought that was sufficient to describe "strength like nothing human". I mean, he's one of the most literal interpretations of the "Big Bad Evil Guy" out there.

I'd give him Athletics 6 (Strength 4B) at least. That would boost his CD by 2 and make his attacks truly terrifying should he land a hit, which is consistent with how he's described. Considering Brienne has Athletics 5 (Strength 1B), I don't think that's too unreasonable. Also, I always thought that his Resilience 3B specialty should have been Stamina 3B, looks like a possible mistake since he's described multiple times as being near-impossible to bring down in combat, and yet suffers from frequent migraines for which he self-medicates, not to mention what eventually does him in. Finally, with the added Athletics and Strength, I'd replace his Weapon Mastery benefit with Hardy.

That should give you a good fight!

[Eisen]

By the way why mudering the Mountain in this way (aside from the fact that he is a bastard who deserve it)? Why not getting ransom or trying to come to terms with the master of this crazy dog? A Lannister always pay his dept...

My character didn't have anything against him, but as the fight continued our options narrowed quite a bit. Everything happened right after the big melee so there were tons of witnesses to his shame. The way our Pirate Renyo was fighting kinda decided things for us, twirling about, tossing pointed insults, inflicting wounds and never being hit himself! We figured that we knew enough about the Mountian to assume he wouldn't let such a thing stand, and if he walked away from that mess alive he'd come back at us with the full force of his house.

Also he was rude to my character at the feast

[Tao Jones]

We figured that we knew enough about the Mountian to assume he wouldn't let such a thing stand, and if he walked away from that mess alive he'd come back at us with the full force of his house.

Seems like you didn't take into account who you were really offending here: Lord Tywin Lannister! As you say, there were lots of witnesses to spread the tale of your names and your deed. Sounds like you owe him one very special mad dog, and a Lannister always pays his debts.

[Eisen]

Bah, what use does Twyin have of a bannerman that can get bested and humiliated so easily? Anything he can do our house can do better

[Tao Jones]

Ah, so you're going to fill in for Ser Gregor? Big boots to fill, best start brushing up on your torture techniques! Got to love the moral ambiguity in this setting, it's the best.

[SerJerk]

I always did think Gregor got the short stick in the original writeups. Athletics 4 (Strength 2B)? I don't know how they thought that was sufficient to describe "strength like nothing human". I mean, he's one of the most literal interpretations of the "Big Bad Evil Guy" out there.

Couldn't agree more. I am eager for the new and improved Campaign Guide - apparently the stats are much more impressive! The original's stats were all wrong. Barristan Selmy would, on average, out-muscle The Mountain That Rides. Not to mention that Brienne and Hodor would both beat him in an arm wrestle... He's described in the books as a freak of nature; if any (living) character deserved a massive, heroic stat, it was Ser Gregor.

[B-Type]

I was actually okay with the canon characters not actually having unstoppable god-king stats in the old edition.
While I DID agree that Gregor should have been physically stronger at least, a huge theme in the books is that not everyone is as badass as they're cracked up to be.
Jaime himself in one of his honest moments basically outright said that he's one of the best, but he's not THE best ever. I'm betting Barristan Selmy could outfight him (and indeed did so during the Harrenhal Tourney), and then there's posthumous guys like Arthur Dane, whom pretty much everyone says was the best swordsman EVER.
In fact it's also recurring theme in the books that most knights in Westeros are kinda shitty compared to the days before Robert's Rebellion. They don't know how to really fight or wage war, the Kingsguard are a bunch of tools promoted because they kissed Lannister ass (and later on Cersei's ass, specifically), and so on.
The only guys who seemed to have lived up to their reputation with 100% of the characters that spoke of their martial prowess are Robert (who basically won every single fight anyone ever talked about him being in), and Selmy (who's pretty much big Westero's biggest badass for decades now).
Gregor is exceptionally dangerous, but there's nothing to suggest in the novels he's actually a brilliant fighter or swordsman. The problem is how Westerosi knights fight: they maneuver around and use shield to deflect the blows of their opponents. See, trying to deflect Gregor's sword is like trying to deflect a tree made out of metal falling off a mountain with a sharp edge attached to it: you can't. It's sheer mass breaks your body like a truck hitting you on the freeway. Most of the people we hear about Gregor killing aren't exceptional in any way: he's a psychopath that Tywin sends out to butcher and murder and terrify peasants and soldiers.
The only guy with really stand-out skills we see him fight nearly kills him because he knew not to stand in front of Gregor like an idiot and try to take his hits. He only lost because he stayed within Gregor's reach because he just HAD to hear that confession.

[Kajani]

But why should the knight before the rebellion be so much better? In that times the last greater wars were also several years ago. The knight under Robert had in several cases fight during Robert's rebellion and/ or against Greyjoy's rebellion, and some in the regular small warfare in the mountains of Moon or in small-scale conflicts between nobel houses (I think they were not too common, but surely they occur). Is that so much less than in years before the fall of the Targaryan?

[Damon]

The only guys who seemed to have lived up to their reputation with 100% of the characters that spoke of their martial prowess are Robert (who basically won every single fight anyone ever talked about him being in), and Selmy (who's pretty much big Westero's biggest badass for decades now)

Drogo lived up to his hype pretty well.

[Paedrig]

Perhaps all this "most knights in Westeros are kinda shitty compared to the days before Robert's Rebellion" is also some kind of the typicall "it was all better in the past".
The suns did shine brighter, the knights were better/ stronger/ more honorable, the maidens prettier and the youth did respect their parents and the older one...

[Tao Jones]

If you're going to be scrutinizing fighters based on their reputation, you'd have to apply the same logic to the RV as well. I always thought it was strange that we hear basically nothing about him until aSoS, and suddenly he's this legend coming out of nowhere to take on one of the most feared combatants in the kingdoms. You could say "he took down Gregor because he was the first to not make the classic blunder against his reach", or you could just as easily say "he took down Gregor because he used underhanded tactics and was also an exceptionally cunning opponent." Everyone agreed it was a pretty even match because they were both among the best fighters around.

I definitely agree about the whole living down legends bit, but Gregor was a freakin' monster. A big part of his mythos also comes from the fact that he repeatedly walked away from huge battles with wounds that would have killed most men where they stand, and then he recovered and got back in the vanguard like the beast he was.

[Legate]

Actually, my opinion of The Mountain as a fighter has always been pretty low. After all what is he most famous for? Slamming the head of an infant against a stone wall! Sure, he has the strength to dole out a goodly amount of damage and wear the heaviest of armour, but give him a fast and competent opponet and I think you will see he gets his pretty quickly. As an example; if he were such a great fighter why blindside the Knight of Flowers? Because Ser Gregor knew the the Knight could probably better him in a fair fight.

[Roadspike]

As an example; if he were such a great fighter why blindside the Knight of Flowers?

Maybe because he's a sadistic bastard who likes fighting more than talking, and inflicting pain more than fighting (fair). I think Gregor Clegane has become such a legend in so short a time because he's a capable swordsman with otherworldly strength and toughness, along with exceptional armor (in size, thickness, and weight at least, the craftsmanship is unknown) and the ability to wield a two-handed sword in one hand. This would make him a terrifying combatant even if he had only mediocre actual swordsmanship.

As for his stats, as have been mentioned a couple of times, I think that if there was ever a case for a 7 Ability, it would be Gregor Clegane (Athletics, with Endurance close behind).

[Legate]

"I think that if there was ever a case for a 7 Ability, it would be Gregor Clegane."

I will qualify this by saying that I have read the first book only. But, I just don't see a 7 ability score in this case. AFAIC see in the novels Clegane is mediocre trained knighted who relies on his size to intimadate his opponent. It is my feeling that in a straight up fight (which would be a switch for Ser Gregor I know) with the likes of Ser Selmy, The Hound or even Jamie (and the like) he would not survive very long. The only opponet he can stand up against is children asleep in their beds and unarmed peasents. In short he is an under handed thug and nothing else. Oh, and I forgot he is also the terror of defenceless horses.

Going on this I really don't see any problem with his stats as listed in the RPG books.

[Flagg]

I will qualify this by saying that I have read the first book only

Keep reading. I won't say you're right or wrong, but he's active for several more books, so you don't have the full picture.

[Legate]

You may as well give me the full picture, I highly doubt that I will be reading any more of the series. Just did not do a thing for me; it took me about 3 tries to get through the majority of the first book.