GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby aprewett » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:26 pm

I got the PDF through DriveThru, so I hope I still have access to the updated PDF?

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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby Carriker » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:48 pm

aprewett wrote:I got the PDF through DriveThru, so I hope I still have access to the updated PDF?


Yup. Sure will. Once it's uploaded, you'll be sent emails to the addresses associated with your account on the site you purchased it from (I believe; I'm not entirely sure how they work behind the Great Oz's curtain).

Even if it doesn't inform you somehow, I will post here when we've put it up. If there are any problems, we'll figure out how to make them right. :)
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby Abulia » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:10 pm

Carriker wrote:First and foremost, I apologize for the mistakes that don't even have the decency to be brand-new mistakes, but are things that should not have found their way back into the material. It is altogether too easy for such things to occur in a project of this size.

In any event, these are reasons, but not excuses. I take full responsibility for those mistakes - it was my job to see them fixed, and while I did indeed update the majority of the errata, a handful of them slipped through.

This is unacceptable to me. I am not going to pay for a book that not only introduces new errors but also repeats errors that have previously been fixed in prior printings.

Thus, what is the process to cancel our pre-orders?
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby Abulia » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:19 pm

rulandor wrote:
Carriker wrote:The Song of Ice & Fire line didn't have a full-on developer whose job it was to curate this sort of thing for a very long time, and I came aboard in the eleventh hour of preparing this book for print. As a result, while I went through and changed out what I thought was everything from the various Errata threads on the forum, I seem to have missed a few. It also seems that there were a handful of updates that were never actually on those threads, but were implemented on-the-fly, as it were.


Well, if most of the errata have really been corrected and only some have come aboard newly, and some older versions have reappeared which are not necessarily errors, the book can still be the version with the fewest mistakes yet.

Well, it isn't. Not only did it appear they took the original (non-Pocket Edition) and simply reflow the text/add new artwork, many of the Pocket Edition errata fixes are not there. PLUS they've added the Peril at King's Landing adventure and added new errors. Plus some of the errors from the Pocket Edition are still there. In short, the GoT Edition is a compilation of the bulk of the errors in one, convenient, place. It's a really unfortunate turn of events.
Typos and one or two off page-references are the bread and butter of publishing. They creep up everywhere, and I do not really mind them - as long as the frequency of occurrence remains reasonable.

Mistakes do happen and it's important that people (and companies) learn from them. That doesn't excuse such an easily preventable turn of events. My group found the mistakes within an hour of glancing through the PDF (over five errors).
You know what? I am still going to buy this book.

If you wish to support shoddy quality control and editorial standards with your money that is your right. I prefer not to. YMMV, of course.

Were Green Ronin to consider replacing these initial books with a corrected print run (ala the Mongoose 1st Edition Conan RPG debacle) I would be a little less harsh. But the essence of the message we're being given is "Oops. Too bad." for purchasing a $50 work riddled with errors from 2009.
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby Lord Ben » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:24 pm

Game books have errors, I have never seen one that didn't. It's not really an industry that can afford a ton of overhead to comb it for every single error. Practically every book I have has a sheet of errata tucked into the cover, the ones that don't are usually because I have it memorized... :)
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby SandorCl » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:58 pm

I really like this game and support Green Ronin. I understand errors happen however I work in print production and version control error inexcusable. I can not buy a copy of book that 2nd gen error. Hopefully there will be another print run.
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby Mrjamespj » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:03 pm

How about emailing all the people who have pre-ordered some kind of code so that if there is another printing without the errors then they get some kind of discount? I don't know how easily something like this could happen or if it is at all possible, I just thought it might be a pretty good way to "correct" this problem?
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby aprewett » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:07 pm

I am just thankfull I did not pre-order.
I would not expect a re-printing from a company the size of GR, surely they will have to sell the current print run.
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby nakraal » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:34 pm

Abulia wrote:If you wish to support shoddy quality control and editorial standards with your money that is your right. I prefer not to. YMMV, of course.


People rarely buy products exclusively to support the producers. We buy because we want the product and in the process we may be happy that we support the producer because he did a good job. Reversed situation also possible. So bottom line question is: Are the errors reason enough not to buy the book?
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby orcface999 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:57 pm

Perhaps all of the professional proofreaders on the boards could sign NDAs and offer to proofread everything and do version crosschecks on a volunteer basis. But remember to be mindful of all the folks yammering "Are you done yet?"

Seriously, how many of GR's staff is full time? Maybe the license puts limitations on them that otherwise fewer errors would slip through? What's the word count? I saw a mention of 5 errors--some slack is called for here. Not so harsh fellows.
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby coldwind » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:06 am

orcface999 wrote:Perhaps all of the professional proofreaders on the boards could sign NDAs and offer to proofread everything and do version crosschecks on a volunteer basis. But remember to be mindful of all the folks yammering "Are you done yet?"

Seriously, how many of GR's staff is full time? Maybe the license puts limitations on them that otherwise fewer errors would slip through? What's the word count? I saw a mention of 5 errors--some slack is called for here. Not so harsh fellows.


Eyup. If these "supposedly glaring omissions" slipped through, imagine how bad the ones that got caught were.

Typos and errata don't really bother me since I primarily use PDFs, and it's fairly easy to keep all that sort of stuff together.
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby rulandor » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:08 am

What I would really like to see is a comprehensive listing of all mistakes in the GoT edition. As of now, we are reading here some conciliatory commentaries, some relentless criticism.

Well, if not a comprehensive list: are there 5 mistakes or 10 or 50? Has working on the GoT Edition perhaps completely bypassed the Pocket Edition, which was a quite decent achievement in patching up? Are travel times for ships, e. g., gone again?

If it should prove necessary to keep the Pocket Edition as the standard, then I might reconsider my wish to buy a beautiful book, which I can largely only admire, but have to put aside in favor of the Pocket Edition for real GM work.

How about another solution? As soon as a relatively error-free PDF of the game of thrones edition exists, Green Ronin could perhaps go Print on Demand with it. I mean, traditional print-run followed by traditional distribution seems to be a bit out of date. I don't understand why among the RPG publishers only White Wolf seem to get this.

I have several White Wolf Print on Demand books, and they are first class quality. And you don't have to wait for months on end for a print run to trickle through distribution and then be full of mistakes, which are not correctable until a second print run has lumbered along.
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby Abulia » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:03 am

rulandor wrote:Well, if not a comprehensive list: are there 5 mistakes or 10 or 50? Has working on the GoT Edition perhaps completely bypassed the Pocket Edition, which was a quite decent achievement in patching up?

I am the one that mentioned "five errors (within an hour)" -- there are certainly more than five. In fact, the first two posts of this thread list four. Couple with the five my group found, again, within an hour, just casually flipping through the book and comparing to our Pocket Editions and original hardback, and you're at ten. That's just within one chapter. These aren't typographical errors; they're rules reversions. I'm not inclined to sit down with my PDF at this time and do a line-by-line comparison, but when one can find the volume of errors that we found within a short period of time by casually glancing through the book, how many more do you think there are? Also, keep in mind we've only been playing GoT for less than 3 months; all these errors made it past the Line Developer.

So, I don't wish to berate the issue, but suffice it to say it's more than "just 5 mistakes." (Again, not counting any new errors introduced.)

My gut read is that they took the original hardback layout, inserted the artwork, reflowed the text, and neglected to include the Pocket Edition errata in entire chapters. Had they started with the Pocket Edition text and reflowed that, the issue wouldn't be nearly as pronounced. A guess on my part; no one but Green Ronin knows for sure.

The part that I'm curious about is when they noticed the issues. Was it before this thread?
Are travel times for ships, e. g., gone again?
Nope, they're still there. Heir is back to providing no Status bonus, though. Head For Numbers has changed for the 3rd time, presumably to the final, correct version? Cohort is back to its pre-PE version. I could go on and on. It's a mishmash of rules fixes and reversions to pre-errata.
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby nakraal » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:21 am

I guess that the whole concept of having the GoT edition is that it updates the previous.

As it is posted in the announcement page: "This edition includes the entire contents of the original rulebook, revised and updated, plus the full length adventure Peril at King's Landing and a gorgeous new cover by fan favorite Michael Komarck"

GR promotion of GoT is based on three things: the updates, the adventure and the artwork, and its common sense that the later 2 just accompany the first just like french fries and a salad accompanies a juicy stake. The question is, is there a stake? Is the book updated? Was it rushed to match the TV GoT's 2nd season schedule?

If the book is in production and cannot be corrected can we who have not preordered, but consider to buy, have a list of errors in order to judge if we want to purchase?
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby Slynt » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:35 am

Well, there you go. I think people - at least fans who have already bought the previous books and are buying a Game of Thrones Edition purely for completism - have a right to be frustrated about this, but of course - it's a matter of just not buying it. But still, it's a shame because I'd love to have a book that's pretty much without errors making it playable at the table.
Smaller companies than Green Ronin have published rule books with less flaws.
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby Mrjamespj » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:38 am

Page 172 of the SIFRP book, table 10-1 has cavalry damage listed as Athletics +3, and table 10-2 as Athletics +5 when upgraded.

Page 178 of the GoT edition has table 10-1 as Animal Handling +3 starting and Athletics +5 when upgraded.

Does anyone know which is correct, Animal Handling or Athletics?

Thanks!
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby Jon Snow » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:07 am

We're making it seem like the text has reverted back to the pre errata form. It hasn't. I'm not seeing much errata missed. If you find what you think is missing errata, post it in the errata thread. There are a couple of deviations from the Pocket Edition, but how do we know it wasn't intentional in some of those cases? Lets put them in the proper place and see if it's a mistake or if it's an update :D

I would love a perfect book myself. In the future, GR needs to release the pdf to us we'll catch most of the stuff they've missed and we'll all be happier for it.

But this book is not riddled with all the pre errata errors and I'll use it as my go to copy - seeing as how the PE was missing some very important charts and statblocks :D
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby Abulia » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:40 pm

Jon Snow wrote:We're making it seem like the text has reverted back to the pre errata form. It hasn't.

It has. If you open the 2009 core book and the GoT edition and read them side-by-side, the text is clearly from that edition, NOT the Pocket Edition. Verbiage in the PE that was cleaned up to be clearer is now back to its original 2009 form. The original core book text was clearly the basis of this edition.
I'm not seeing much errata missed.

Well, in ten pages here's what I found: 14 errors/reversion to 2009 pre-errata states.
Glancing through ten pages and found... wrote:Previously fixed or part of the errata (now returned to the GoT Edition)

pg 79 Brawler has incorrect prerequisite again

pg 76, Axe Fighter I through III have reverted back and no longer specify that you must select one benefit when attacking with axes.

pg 78, Blood of Valyria no longer gives its bonus to every Intimidate and Persuasion test you make (PE).

pg 78, Bludgeon Fighter III has reverted back and no longer requires you select which benefit you are using when attacking with a bludgeoning weapon.

pg 80, Brother of the Night’s Watch has reverted back; instead of -2D to all Status tests your Status is set to 2.

pg 80, Cohort is back to 2009 version; no longer provides its bonus to Intrigue Defense.

pg 81, Expertise has reverted and no longer requires you to have bonus dice int the selected specialty.

pg 82, Greensight, which was renamed to Greenseer (PE), is now Greensight again.

pg 83, Heir has reverted back and no longer gives a bonus of 1 to Status test results.

pg 84, Improved Armor Mastery has reverted back and no longer reduces an armor’s Combat Defense penalty by 1.

pg 84, Long Blade Fighter no longer provides a +1 to your Fighting test result against enemies without a shield; back to the 2009 version of -1 Combat Defense for adversaries wielding “non-shield parrying weapons.”

pg 86, Long Blade Fighter II & III no longer require you to specify which benefit you will use when attacking with a long blade.

pg 97, Pole-Arm Fighter I has reverted back and no longer does damage on a hit (knocks foes to the ground).

pg 88, Sinister has reverted back to its 2009 version

I got frustrated and stopped at this point.
But this book is not riddled with pre errata errors and I'll use it as my go to copy

I'd suggest you look again. It's covered in errors, IMO.
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby Jon Snow » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:10 pm

I know there are errors. I've pointed out several in other threads. But most of the errata I've checked have been included. It does seem the Benefits section has the most reversions or changes, though.

That said, I'm also surprised that we aren't getting a chance to fix the mistakes in the print edition. Why not crowd source your editing to perfect your book?
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby jyster » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:53 am

To bad this book is such a step back for the game, I was really looking forward to having this in my collection.

I guess I have to tell my meet up group not to buy this book until they fix all the problems and just stick with the pocket edition.

Doesnt surprise me, I tried to get some help from Green Ronin in running an adventure for the meet up group and they never returned my emails. This was even after the Line Dev said to send the email it to GR. Maybe this line doesnt matter to GR.
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby Captain Liberty » Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:37 am

I'm very saddened and disappointed by all this, as well as surprised at GR. I am glad I didn't pre-order. I had planned to but saw all the errors listed in this forum and RPG.net then decided to hold off. I'll await a second printing.
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby memorax » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:03 am

Well GR imo has taken on way too much in the way of projects. M&M, Dragon Age, SOIF, and DC Adventures. It was bound to happen that eventually something would go wrong. Unfortunately not sure if the line will recover imo. I'm not buying the GOT edition unless it's a corrected second printing. I have no interest in buying a 50$ book that requires me to have the corrected Pdf side by side with it to have the most ocrrected teext. I feel bad for the guy tossed into the project at the las minute. Seems like Gr tossed him under the bus imo.
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby skywalker » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:31 pm

This saddens me too, especially given the long and difficult road that it took to get to the Pocket Edition, which I will be sticking with as a result of this.
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby Carriker » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:17 pm

Once again, apologies all. Believe me - no one is more aggravated about this turn of events than I.

In order to cancel your pre-order, it is vital that you write to custserv@greenronin.com IMMEDIATELY.

Please be aware that if you selected the option to get the PDF, you will still be paying for the PDF. What has been downloaded cannot be undownloaded.
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Re: GoT Edition PDF vs. PDF Version 1.1 vs. Original Edition

Postby Captain Liberty » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:33 pm

I'm a bit amazed GR still have no plans to try to do something special for the fans after this complete mess. No discounted book or anything.
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