Long Blade Fighter II

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Long Blade Fighter II

Postby Cataphract » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:42 am

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who has been sorely disappointed by the failure that is Long Blade Fighter II. Compared to the useful LBF I and the impressive (don't know yet if effective) LBF III, Long Blade Fighter II seems to not even be worth it, considering the Maneuver rules are actually BETTER, and don't need to eat up a Destiny point.

So, here's my proposal, to make it much more worth the investment:

Long Blade Fighter II
Your control of your weapon has increased manifold, especially your mastery of half-swording. Through proper technique and leverage, you not only maneuver your opponents where you want them but also you can easily find gaps in their armor to take advantage of.
Prerequisites: Fighting 5, Long Blade Fighter I
When armed with a Long Blade, you may sacrifice all of your bonus dice from Long Blades to combine a Maneuver action with your attack, as per the normal Maneuver rules. Your Fighting test is compared both to your opponents Combat Defense, to see if you hit, and his passive Fighting result, to see if your Maneuver succeeded, just like a regular Maneuver action, with the additional benefit that the opponent's Awareness test is now Challenging (9), and you may move him an additional yard per two bonus dice sacrificed, round up.
Also, while armed with a long blade and no other weapon or shield, your long blade gains the Piercing X quality, where X is equal to the number of bonus dice in the Long Blades specialty, rounded up. This also applies even if you have sacrificed your bonus dice.
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Re: Long Blade Fighter II

Postby Pytorb » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:33 am

Like you our group thought Long Blade II very underpowered. We've gone with being able to do Maneuver as a free action if the character sacrifices all their bonus dice whilst making a Long Blade attack. Personally I think giving a Piercing rank to the character's bonus dice is overpowered. How about a flat Piercing 1 whther you sacrifice bonus dice or not?
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Re: Long Blade Fighter II

Postby Zorbeltuss » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:50 am

Long Blade Fighter III is worth the investment of one crappy benefit to get it though.
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Re: Long Blade Fighter II

Postby Pytorb » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:34 pm

True Long Blade III is good, but every stage should add something and Long Blade II just doesn't when there is Maneuver out there
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Re: Long Blade Fighter II

Postby Tao Jones » Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:26 pm

Pytorb wrote:Like you our group thought Long Blade II very underpowered. We've gone with being able to do Maneuver as a free action if the character sacrifices all their bonus dice whilst making a Long Blade attack. Personally I think giving a Piercing rank to the character's bonus dice is overpowered. How about a flat Piercing 1 whther you sacrifice bonus dice or not?


I think this is an elegant solution to the problem. I also think it's powerful enough that you don't need to give them any Piercing ranks, since LBFII only requires 2B of bonus dice, so you're getting a lot of bang for your buck. If the benefit worked as you describe, I'd be using it almost every round.

Here's how I'd word it:

Long Blade Fighter II
Requires Fighting 5, Long Blade Fighter I
Whenever you make a Fighting test to attack using a long blade weapon, you may sacrifice bonus dice to maneuver your opponent. By sacrificing your bonus dice, you may make a Maneuver attack as a Free Action, in addition to your regular attack. If you're making a Divided Attack, choose one of your opponents as the target of this Maneuver, and use the same number of dice in the Maneuver action as you use in your attack against that opponent.
You must choose which Long Blade Fighter benefit (if any) applies when you attack with long blades.
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Re: Long Blade Fighter II

Postby Saturno » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:32 pm

Good work and thanks for helping me with this lame benefit!!

But hey, Pole-Arm Fighter III is very underpowered too, so how about applying damage as a normal attack to make it worth the cost?
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Re: Long Blade Fighter II

Postby Tao Jones » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:53 pm

Looking at the most recent version, it seems pretty good to me. The special attack does normal damage, and your opponent can't move afterwards. Which probably means, since you're a polearm master, that he can't attack you back during those rounds. And there's nothing in there that says you can be attacking him each round while he's trapped.
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Re: Long Blade Fighter II

Postby Pytorb » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:07 pm

After a discussion around the gaming table last night we decided to still with Long Blade II as I had written it in our house rules, just making Maneuver a free action rather than that plus Piercing I. There is virtually no Polearms use in our group so Polearms III hasn't really come up yet.
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Re: Long Blade Fighter II

Postby Pytorb » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:24 am

After a bit more game table discussion, taking into account that all our combats are abstract rather than played out on a map, this is our new version of Long Blade Fighter II. The reason we went with this option is that it gives a swordsman or swordswoman greater parrying ability. It also makes those long duels between knights mentioned in the books more likely by boosting their combat defence.

Long Blade Fighter II (Martial Quality)
Prerequisite: Fighting 5, Long Blade Fighter I
Whenever you make a Fighting test to attack with a long blade weapon you may sacrifice bonus dice to deliver blows balanced for attack or parrying. Your Combat Defence increases by half the number of bonus dice sacrificed (rounding up) when fighting normally or by the full number of bonus dice if fighting defensively.
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Re: Long Blade Fighter II

Postby Paedrig » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:29 am

I assume this bonus is for one round? Or as long as you sacrifice the bonus dices?
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Re: Long Blade Fighter II

Postby omegonthesane » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:31 am

Not quite sure why you see Long Blade Fighter I as a good benefit - the only time I've seen it used to decent effect was by a heavily wounded fighter who had enough pretend bonus dice from the fact he was keeping less than half of his Fighting dice by that point in the combat.

Clarification request on Pytorb's LBF 2 - does "fighting defensively" refer to the Cautious Attack action, or to forgetting to actually attack? If the latter, it's slightly worse than Shield Mastery; if the former, it's situationally better, as Long Blades bonus dice are an actually respectable investment and it potentially makes you practically intangible in melee.

Cataphract's LBF II appears to make Greatswords even more overpowered. I say "appears", because Piercing damage on a Greatsword is not something that you generally care about, since the idea is to be striking for $TEXAS damage every time anyway and your best chance of surviving against a Greatsword master is already to strip naked and whore Combat Defence bonuses. It might be worth specifying that this bonus applies only to one-handed longswords, so that people actually use the combat style it encourages rather than simply relying on giant swords.
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Re: Long Blade Fighter II

Postby Addicted2aa » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:17 pm

I'm with omegonthesane, LBF1 is not that good. I think a while ago we went through the numbers and proved that Expert or Talented, one of the general Qualities was just flat out better in all situations. Not sure which, it's been some time since I've played or run.

I took a crack at this problem last fall, viewtopic.php?f=29&t=12510 and came up with a similar idea. Mine greatly increased CD, by 2 instead of by 1 or by .5, but it only focused on the specific target of the attack. A sword is not a great defensive weapon and gets most of it's defense by forcing your opponent to block your sword or let themselves be hit. It is not great at blocking multiple opponents. You can cover about a quarter to a half of your body in when in guard and you can move to protect the rest, but if there are two attacks, one high, one low, even if they are coming from the same side, you can't block both. With a pole-arm or a second weapon/shield you can block both and it really requires three or more attacks to open you up.
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Re: Long Blade Fighter II

Postby Pytorb » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:25 pm

Paedrig, it would be for one round at a time for as long as the character sacrifices bonus dice. If the player tells me at the start of the round then it is for the whole of that round, if they only tell me when they are rolling to attack then it starts then and lasts until thier initiative the next round.

omegonthesane, yes I did mean Cautious Attack, sorry for the table talk coming over into a houserule (rushes away to correct house rule document).

Addicted2aa My Cautious Attack house rule is that it increased Combat Defence by the character's Fighting Ability rather than a blanket +3 (with an additional +1 if they are using a Defensive weapon) so the extra Combat Defence from LBF 2 might not need to be as high as 2 per Bonus dice sacrificed.

LBF1 is, I think a very situational benefit. If your charecter is fighting againsty someone with a low Combat Defence and medium to high Armour Rating then you are probably looking for as high a roll as possible to get criticals. so LBF 1 is useless unless thye are fighting without a shield. If on the other hand your character is fighting someone who you are more likely than not to miss, for example a Braavosi Blade with a Combat Defence of 14-18, then you need to make every dice pip count. So just equalling their combat defence and instantly getting two degrees of success with LBF 1 all of a sudden becomes a lot more handy. My player group are in Braavos at the moment and so may get an opportunity to test this ;-)
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Re: Long Blade Fighter II

Postby Addicted2aa » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:18 pm

Pytorb wrote:Paedrig, it would be for one round at a time for as long as the character sacrifices bonus dice. If the player tells me at the start of the round then it is for the whole of that round, if they only tell me when they are rolling to attack then it starts then and lasts until thier initiative the next round.

omegonthesane, yes I did mean Cautious Attack, sorry for the table talk coming over into a houserule (rushes away to correct house rule document).

Addicted2aa My Cautious Attack house rule is that it increased Combat Defence by the character's Fighting Ability rather than a blanket +3 (with an additional +1 if they are using a Defensive weapon) so the extra Combat Defence from LBF 2 might not need to be as high as 2 per Bonus dice sacrificed.

LBF1 is, I think a very situational benefit. If your charecter is fighting againsty someone with a low Combat Defence and medium to high Armour Rating then you are probably looking for as high a roll as possible to get criticals. so LBF 1 is useless unless thye are fighting without a shield. If on the other hand your character is fighting someone who you are more likely than not to miss, for example a Braavosi Blade with a Combat Defence of 14-18, then you need to make every dice pip count. So just equalling their combat defence and instantly getting two degrees of success with LBF 1 all of a sudden becomes a lot more handy. My player group are in Braavos at the moment and so may get an opportunity to test this ;-)


I wasn't actually saying yours didn't give enough of a CD boost. I thought your numbers looked fine at first glance. I was saying from a simulations perspective it doesn't make sense to apply it across the board instead of the target of their attack. That's why mine has a +2, because it is only against one person, it needs to be high to make it worth it balance wise.

As for LBF1, it was covered before but basically it's better to spend exp points to get a new rank and destiny points to get expertise
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=12390&start=25#p116624

Basically it's just better to take expertise, unless you plan on fighting alot of braavosi, so it works for your group this particular time, but normally not so much. That's part of what I tried to fix when I rewrote it, though even then it's still a bit worse than expertise, but the rest of the chain should make up for that.
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