Freeport 4E Companion?

[The_Livewire]

I think just the original trillogy and the freeport city of adventure are 3.0

As to no 4e, well WotC's loss is my gain, can't wait for pirates and keep those 3.x books coming gentlemen

[Talwyn]

I think just the original trillogy and the freeport city of adventure are 3.0

As to no 4e, well WotC's loss is my gain, can't wait for pirates and keep those 3.x books coming gentlemen

Add: Hell in Freeport, Tales of Freeport and Denizens of Freeport.

[Pramas]

I talk a bit about how to use the Pirate's Guide with 4E in the Freeport blog today. FYI.

http://greenronin.com/freeport/

[NeilFord]

Excellent guide Chris, thanks for putting it together.

I definitely want to run Freeport with 4e, so this was very helpful.

- Neil.

[timemrick]

I think just the original trillogy and the freeport city of adventure are 3.0

Add: Hell in Freeport, Tales of Freeport and Denizens of Freeport.

Plus the majority of the "Focus on Freeport" articles (including "The Consequence of Vice," which originally appeared in ENWorld's Player Journal). Every other (D&D) Freeport product should be 3.5.

As to no 4e, well WotC's loss is my gain, can't wait for pirates and keep those 3.x books coming gentlemen

Green Ronin has announced that The d20 Freeport Companion will be their last 3.5 product. As a result, they packed it very full of pirate-y goodness (including 3.5 versions of many NPCs who first appeared in The City of Adventure and Denizens).

[The_Livewire]

So much for my subliminal messages.

[Pagan priest]

Since it looks like this thread is done, I would like to address a couple of issues that were off-topic.

Given the whole way that WotC has been acting with 4E, I would love to see everyone, publishers and players alike, tell them to pound sand. Even the timing of their announcement made for serious problems. (My FLGS lost a LOT of money from lost sales of D&D stuff for xmas, nobody bought when they knew that 4E was coming.)

I would be very surprised if GR did nothing at all with 4E. They would be insane imo not to. The only game line that does well in my neck of the woods is M&M. Freeport is a very far second and TrueD20 is almost non-existant. As for players 4Ed sales in 3 of the LGS I go to is still strong so it's not going to happen.

MY FLGS also lost sales to 4ED. Their just no blaming it completely on 4ED. With Amazon giving between 24-34% discount on rpg books and with torrent sites where you can download pirated copy of PDF of D&D books it's more than just 4ED.

No, I was being very specific. My FLGS lost money BECAUSE of the announcement of the release of 4th ed. I was not talking about ebay, Amazon or pirated PDFs. When WotC announced the release of 4th ed, sales for 3.5 slumped, and even the Xmas shopping season did not pull them out. Where the FLGS expected to sell 20 - 30 books (3.5) each week, they were selling only 3 or 4. That is a huge drop, and that was DIRECTLY the result of WotC announcing 4th ed way too soon.

And the rules themselves... Now, I'll grant you that I have not actually read the real rules in any depth, I have only seen previews. As far as I can tell, they have turned the game from a role playing game to a miniatures battle game with character advancement. Too many of the powers that characters have only make sense when you think of them in terms of a miniatures battle game played on a grid. For example: "My warlord hits the dragon for 30 points of damage, so your paladin and the ranger each get to move 30 feet." WTH? How can you possibly explain that in story form?

Without at least reading the books how can you really talk about the game. The preivews just give you a fraction of the information. I used to think like that when it came to 3ED. After reading the books and playing a game I changed my opinion. If your going to go around telling otheras that 4ED is a bad game than at least make an effort to read the books. Otherwise imo your making false claims about a product you hardly know anything about.

Then your opinion isn't worth much; my claim was based on reading the actual books themselves, not the preview. Early in the preview stage, I thought that 4th ed looked good. Conceptually, the idea of having certain powers that can be performed at will, once per encounter or once per day is a good idea. They just rolled a 1 on the execution of the idea.

The example I used above was taken directly from the book, from the Warlord (IIRC) as a 19th level ability. Recently, I saw a comment describing 4th ed as a simulation of a MMORPG, well if I am going to be playing a computer game, why bother clearing the table off and inviting friends over?

[memorax]

Since it looks like this thread is done, I would like to address a couple of issues that were off-topic.

No, I was being very specific. My FLGS lost money BECAUSE of the announcement of the release of 4th ed. I was not talking about ebay, Amazon or pirated PDFs. When WotC announced the release of 4th ed, sales for 3.5 slumped, and even the Xmas shopping season did not pull them out. Where the FLGS expected to sell 20 - 30 books (3.5) each week, they were selling only 3 or 4. That is a huge drop, and that was DIRECTLY the result of WotC announcing 4th ed way too soon.

So your telling me that even with Amazon giving discounts on products and with Ebay and with pirated PDFs they were not losing any money before 4Ed came out. I find that hard to believe. MY FLGS saw some of their sales take a small hit before 4Ed was announced. Your underestimating how far consumers wil go to save money. I work in retail. When the Canadian became par with the US dollar consumers expected prices of books to change immediately also. It did not as econmics does not work that way. I'm not saying 4ED is not to blame. I'm just saying it can't be the only factor. It's way too easy to blame 4E for everything that is wrong in the industry.

And the rules themselves... Now, I'll grant you that I have not actually read the real rules in any depth, I have only seen previews. :

and

Then your opinion isn't worth much; my claim was based on reading the actual books themselves, not the preview. Early in the preview stage, I thought that 4th ed looked good. Conceptually, the idea of having certain powers that can be performed at will, once per encounter or once per day is a good idea. They just rolled a 1 on the execution of the idea.

Your first post clearly saysyou did not read the books. You make no mention of even having the books. Now that some time has passed you have like everybody else. Your trying to say that your above post was taken from what is writen in the books. You keep changing your story to suit your counter argument. It's clearly written in the above post that you were going only on the previews and not what was written in the books. Oh and the subject of opinions not being valid at least I'm not trying to change my story just to hide the fact that you were commenting on a game you hardly knew anything about.

The example I used above was taken directly from the book, from the Warlord (IIRC) as a 19th level ability. Recently, I saw a comment describing 4th ed as a simulation of a MMORPG, well if I am going to be playing a computer game, why bother clearing the table off and inviting friends over?

Your first example was taken from an online preview. Now your trying to hide the fact that you were commenting on parts of 4ED as opposed to the whole of 4ED. Nice try at trying to hide that. Except your own post contradicts that. I don't think 4ED feels like an MMORPG I suppose this opinnion is invalid too.

And quite frankly I'm not too sympathtic to people who dislike the changes that 4ED has brought to the table. When a game devloper says it's going to be different it's going to be different. When the online previews and other previews say it's going to be different wll guess what it's going to be different. What were you expecting no changes despite evidence to the contrary.

[Pagan priest]

Since it looks like this thread is done, I would like to address a couple of issues that were off-topic.

No, I was being very specific. My FLGS lost money BECAUSE of the announcement of the release of 4th ed. I was not talking about ebay, Amazon or pirated PDFs. When WotC announced the release of 4th ed, sales for 3.5 slumped, and even the Xmas shopping season did not pull them out. Where the FLGS expected to sell 20 - 30 books (3.5) each week, they were selling only 3 or 4. That is a huge drop, and that was DIRECTLY the result of WotC announcing 4th ed way too soon.

So your telling me that even with Amazon giving discounts on products and with Ebay and with pirated PDFs they were not losing any money before 4Ed came out. I find that hard to believe. MY FLGS saw some of their sales take a small hit before 4Ed was announced. Your underestimating how far consumers wil go to save money. I work in retail. When the Canadian became par with the US dollar consumers expected prices of books to change immediately also. It did not as econmics does not work that way. I'm not saying 4ED is not to blame. I'm just saying it can't be the only factor. It's way too easy to blame 4E for everything that is wrong in the industry.
...

Divided up for clarity.

Here I was being very clear. I was not refering to any lose of sales from any source other than THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF 4TH ED. PERIOD Yes, I am aware of what all those other factors have done to sales of brck and morter shops. The economic downturn, the price of gas, and phases of the moon can have their effects as well. Not relavent to what I was saying.

WotC officially announced the release of 4th ed too soon. By announcing it when they did, that announcement in and of itself caused a drop in sales of all 3rd ed materials during the Xmas shopping season. Since the LGSs as a prime source of new gamers, it is in WotC's best interest to make some small bit of effort to kep them happy, or at least not pissed off. The official announcement could have waited until after the Xmas period.

Do try to pay attention this time.

[memorax]

Here I was being very clear. I was not refering to any lose of sales from any source other than THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF 4TH ED. PERIOD Yes, I am aware of what all those other factors have done to sales of brck and morter shops. The economic downturn, the price of gas, and phases of the moon can have their effects as well. Not relavent to what I was saying.

Please try and think outside of your anti-D&D/Wotc box for a second. All the factors I mentioned are relavent to what your are saying. Your chosing to convinetally ignore them as they don't fit into your one sided explanation. But hey feel free to just ignore anything you don't agree with and pass of your so called "infalliable truth" to the masses. Since it's quite obvious that you know more than the rest of us and ingnore anything you disagree with. What's next 2=2 =5 and I bet you can prove it too. Yor comment about "phases of the moon" showws to me that your not listening to anything you don't want to listen to.

WotC officially announced the release of 4th ed too soon. By announcing it when they did, that announcement in and of itself caused a drop in sales of all 3rd ed materials during the Xmas shopping season. Since the LGSs as a prime source of new gamers, it is in WotC's best interest to make some small bit of effort to kep them happy, or at least not pissed off. The official announcement could have waited until after the Xmas period.

While I do agree that Wotc announced a new edition early and at the wrong time of the year they don't have to ask gamers anything if they don't want too. News flash sometimes business is not fair to the the consumer. Do you think car manufacturers ask drivers if they should phase out or introduce a particular model of car. Did Microsoft ask those with PC if they really wanted another version of Windows. No they just made they new editions. Why is it that some gamers seem to think the gaming industry should be run differently.

It's ironic because other rpg companies have released new editions of games without such trouble. No one really said too much when the New World of Darkness was announced nor did anybody really say anything when Hero Games announced a Hero System 6th Edition in 2009. Since it's D&D and it's a big company I supoose it might make some gamers think they are being cool and building some sort of non-existant rpg street cred or something.

Do try to pay attention this time.

I was paying attention. Your the one who ignores anything no matter how valid to a discussion because I'm not just agreeing with you. Well guess what not everyone agrees with what you say. Insulting them is not going to magically make the point your trying to get across more important. But hey if it makes you feel better more power to you. Keep it up and I'm going to report you to the mods.

[Pagan priest]

They say that the third time's a charm.

Here I was being very clear. I was not refering to any lose of sales from any source other than THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF 4TH ED. PERIOD Yes, I am aware of what all those other factors have done to sales of brck and morter shops. The economic downturn, the price of gas, and phases of the moon can have their effects as well. Not relavent to what I was saying.

Please try and think outside of your anti-D&D/Wotc box for a second. All the factors I mentioned are relavent to what your are saying.

No, they are not in the least relevant to the point I have made.

Your chosing to convinetally ignore them as they don't fit into your one sided explanation.

I am ignoring them because they have no bearing on the facts of the situation.

But hey feel free to just ignore anything you don't agree with and pass of your so called "infalliable truth" to the masses.

Sometimes, reality sucks. Doesn't make what I wrote any less true...

Since it's quite obvious that you know more than the rest of us and ingnore anything you disagree with.

Well, i do seem to know more than you, anyway...

What's next 2=2 =5 and I bet you can prove it too. Yor comment about "phases of the moon" showws to me that your not listening to anything you don't want to listen to.

WotC officially announced the release of 4th ed too soon. By announcing it when they did, that announcement in and of itself caused a drop in sales of all 3rd ed materials during the Xmas shopping season. Since the LGSs as a prime source of new gamers, it is in WotC's best interest to make some small bit of effort to kep them happy, or at least not pissed off. The official announcement could have waited until after the Xmas period.

While I do agree that Wotc announced a new edition early and at the wrong time of the year they don't have to ask gamers anything if they don't want too.

I was not talking about "asking the gamers", I was talking about acting in a manner that does not screw over their accociates, the LGSs that make it possible for WotC to stay in business and keep new generations of gamers coming i.

News flash sometimes business is not fair to the the consumer.

Then that business goes broke when the consumer realizes they have been cheated.

Do you think car manufacturers ask drivers if they should phase out or introduce a particular model of car. Did Microsoft ask those with PC if they really wanted another version of Windows. No they just made they new editions. Why is it that some gamers seem to think the gaming industry should be run differently.

Had you bothered to pay any attention to what I actually wrote you would have seen nothing that says otherwise. What I am saying is two things: WotC screwed the stores by announcing 4th ed before Xmas; and that 4th ed was poorly executed.

It's ironic because other rpg companies have released new editions of games without such trouble. No one really said too much when the New World of Darkness was announced nor did anybody really say anything when Hero Games announced a Hero System 6th Edition in 2009.

I don't play those, so I wouldn't care if they released a new edition each month. Unless it hurt my FLGS, like WotC did with their timing.

Since it's D&D and it's a big company I supoose it might make some gamers think they are being cool and building some sort of non-existant rpg street cred or something.

Do try to pay attention this time.

I was paying attention. Your the one who ignores anything no matter how valid to a discussion because I'm not just agreeing with you. Well guess what not everyone agrees with what you say. Insulting them is not going to magically make the point your trying to get across more important. But hey if it makes you feel better more power to you. Keep it up and I'm going to report you to the mods.

Now then, since I am getting tired of repeating myself, I will lay things out in a different format just to make sure.

1. Have things like Amazon and E-bay affected brick and morter stores? Yes, but that is not relevant to this point.
2. Why not? The loss of sales caused by on-line discount shopping is a continual drain of the revenues of a b&m store. It does not cause a large and sudden drop in sales of a previously strong product line.
3. Was there a large and sudden drop in a previously strong product line? Yes, D&D 3.x products experienced a sudden and large drop in sales immediately after WotC announced that the 4th edition of the game would go on sale in a few months time. This was announced prior to the Xmas sale season, for a game that would not be available until well after the Xmas season.
4. Inference: gamers who would otherwise have either purchased 3.x or asked for it as a present instead waited for 4th ed.
5. The Xmas shopping season is critical for retail stores and represents a huge portion of their net annual income.
6. Had WotC waited until after the Xmas season to announce 4th ed, the stores would have sold numersous copies of the various 3.x books they had already bought and paid for.
7. In the specific case of my FLGS, they had prepared to sell literally dozens of copies of the 3.x books each week leading up to Xmas. Instead, they only sold 2-4 copies of all titles combined during that same period.
8. The projected sales were based on the assumption that the various on-line sources would cause a decrease in the number of sales. The only new factor in the equation was the announcement of 4th ed by WotC.
9. Other product lines not based on WotC's d20 system and 3.x did not have this sudden, large drop in projected sales. These other product lines are not anywhere near as popular as the D&D line, at least at my FLGS. (YMMV)

[memorax]

No, they are not in the least relevant to the point I have made.

Thank you for proving from point. Either agree with me or I think your argument is crap.

I am ignoring them because they have no bearing on the facts of the situation.

They do have bearing on the topic at hand but since you don't agree with anything that I post you just keep showing to me at least that unless I just nod and smile a anything you say you will ignore anything I post. Like I said you just keep proving my point.

Sometimes, reality sucks. Doesn't make what I wrote any less true...

I never said anything that you wrote was untrue. I'm just trying to say that other factors are involved. Your basic premise is that everything you post is right no matter what anybody says. Not exactly much of a counter argument.

Well, i do seem to know more than you, anyway...

Grow up. what are you some moronic two year old who if he does not get his way is going to pull a fit and roll around all over the floor until he gets what he wants. Have some damn respect for your fellow gamers. Not to mention that you lessen the impact of argument and demean yourself in the process.

I was not talking about "asking the gamers", I was talking about acting in a manner that does not screw over their accociates, the LGSs that make it possible for WotC to stay in business and keep new generations of gamers coming in.

Your right from a moral and emotional standpoint. From a business and financial standpoint they don't have to do anything. It woud be nice if Wotc would take into account the little guy. They don't have to. that is what you are unwilling to accept. As I said business is unfair. Unless you or I have lots of money to buy Wotc out nothing is going to change. Wotc has many fans of D&D. Enough so imo to take a loss. They survived the transition from 2.0. to 3.0. the transistion from 3.0. to 3.5. It's still to early to see if they survive 4.0. I think they will.

Then that business goes broke when the consumer realizes they have been cheated.

Your making it sound like Wotc is some nickel and dime organization and that D&D is some sort of fantasy rpg no one plays. Please tell me you are not that naive. Do you know how many gamers play D&D? Enough so that imo Wotc can take a loss. Do you honestly think Wotc does no research before releasing a new edition. They manged to survive two edition changes of their top selling rpg. I think they will survive again.

Just like when White Wolf came out with the New World of Darkness. Fans of the Old World of Darkness were claiming that WW would go under. Their still around because they have enough of a fanbase to take a loss.

Had you bothered to pay any attention to what I actually wrote you would have seen nothing that says otherwise. What I am saying is two things: WotC screwed the stores by announcing 4th ed before Xmas; and that 4th ed was poorly executed.

Just keep ignoring the fact that I have posted that I have been paying attention. It does not matter when they would have announced a new edition. Before or after Xmas would have made no difference. Whenever a new edition of a game is announced sales drop. As gamers do not want to buy any older edition books for fear of them being obsolete in case they new edition no longer supports them.

I am a big Hero Systems fan they announced a new edition of the Hero System to be released at Gencon 2009. Do you think after hearing that I would be buying more 5E books because it was announced after Xmas. what kind of convuleted reasoning is that. seriously man your thought process are starting to scare me.

As for 4E being poorly executed the jury still out on that one. How many games have their first printing sell out before they are released. And I'm going to be playing in a 4E game next week and the DM stopped playing 3.5 because it was such a pain in the behind to run. How about you actually wait a year of real time before calling something a failure.

I don't play those, so I wouldn't care if they released a new edition each month. Unless it hurt my FLGS, like WotC did with their timing.

Ah I see if it does not fit into my box I don't care about it attitude. So let me get this straight. Wotc release a new edition it hurts your FLGS. Another company does the same and your telling me it does nothing to your FLGS. Man you really have no commen sense. If you did you would realize that another company releasing a new edition would hurt sales at your FLGS. People will buy less books as a new edition is coming out.

Granted the impact by a nother company in terms of sales would not be as big as D&D but it still a loss. My FLGS had to put their older 3rd Edition Gurps stuff at half price because no one was buying it because of the recent release of 4Ed Gurps. Do try to be more rational as your counter arguments are starting to make no sense.

Now then, since I am getting tired of repeating myself, I will lay things out in a different format just to make sure.

No I think your enjoying repeating yourself as it gives you an excuse to ignoe any other viewpoint besides your own. I actually agree with you on some points. Your have yet to agree with anything I say unless I agree with what you say and I'm not going to do that to please you.

1. Have things like Amazon and E-bay affected brick and morter stores? Yes, but that is not relevant to this point.

It is relavant to this point. Your attributing the loss of proft of your FLGS to just the release of 4ED. While it was a factor it's not the only one. I wish you would see that. Ask the owner of your FLGS if online sales have not hurt his profit margin. If he tells you it does not he is lying through his teeth.

2. Why not? The loss of sales caused by on-line discount shopping is a continual drain of the revenues of a b&m store. It does not cause a large and sudden drop in sales of a previously strong product line.

It may not contribute a large and sudden drop in sales but it does contribue to a steady loss in sales. Are you going to tell me with a straight face that a discount of between 20% to 40% is not something to be worried about. Ask any of yor friends if given the choice to buy online at a discount or buy in store at full price and tell me some of not most will tell you online.

The core books on Amazon are each 34% off. That is a decent amount of money saved. Are you going to serioulsy tell me that people will notbe tempted by that. I guess you have not bought many books online. If you did you would see the difference. I only bought the 3 core 4E books at my FLGS because I wanted to support them. The next purchases are all going to be through Amazon.

3. Was there a large and sudden drop in a previously strong product line? Yes, D&D 3.x products experienced a sudden and large drop in sales immediately after WotC announced that the 4th edition of the game would go on sale in a few months time. This was announced prior to the Xmas sale season, for a game that would not be available until well after the Xmas season.

It does not matter when a new edition is announced. Gamers stop buying as soon as a new one is announced. Do you think that sales at your FLGS would not have dropped if the held off the announcement until after Xmas. Serioulsy i have to ask again are you that naive? Have you not held off buying books because a new edition was announced. Would you still have bought books of the older edition? I think not.

4. Inference: gamers who would otherwise have either purchased 3.x or asked for it as a present instead waited for 4th ed.

And why should they not hold off or ask for an older edition book as a present. Your asking the gaming poulation to spend money on an older edition of an rpg for the sake of giving more profits to a gaming store. I like my FLGS store I'm not going to go broke supporting them. I'm certainly not going to be buying any 3.5 books brand new only used. If I buy an 3.5 books it's ones that are going to be discontinued. I think your really are that naive. Who in his right mind would encourage someone to spend money on an older edition of an rpg when they know full well a new one is coming out. Your basically helping to screw over a fellow gamers for the sake of your FLGS.

5. The Xmas shopping season is critical for retail stores and represents a huge portion of their net annual income.

I work in retail. i know full well how important the XMas season is. This year we made less than usual because the Canadian dollar was strong and publishers took forever to change the prices to reflect that. Which sent more people to buy on our site as most if not all the books are cheaper. Your keep underestmating how far the consumer will go to save a few dollars. Last year was one of our worst X-mas seasons ever.

6. Had WotC waited until after the Xmas season to announce 4th ed, the stores would have sold numersous copies of the various 3.x books they had already bought and paid for.

You keep thinking that somehow that gamers would still buy the same level of books after a new edition is annouced. Before X-mas after X-mas they don't care. They don't want to waste money on books that will be obsolete in a year or so.

7. In the specific case of my FLGS, they had prepared to sell literally dozens of copies of the 3.x books each week leading up to Xmas. Instead, they only sold 2-4 copies of all titles combined during that same period.

Unless it's the core 3.5 books or the really popular 3.5 books no FLGS I know of always sold all the 3.5 books in large quantities. Due to the fact that some were good some were okay and some were just plain bad. So I find your comment about you FLGS selling dozens of 3.5 books hard to believe.

Not to mention that even if Wotc had not announced 4E at X-mas they may have not sold as many books either. Retail is strange like that. one year you might sell a ton of books at X-mas the next you might sell half or a quarter. It all depends on how well the economy is doing. With the
Canadian dollar we sold less this year then we did last year as the dollar was not as strong. Many cosumers refused to pay the candian price and wanted to pay the american price so went online or a store that would give them the american price. As I said cosumers are a very picky bunch.

8. The projected sales were based on the assumption that the various on-line sources would cause a decrease in the number of sales. The only new factor in the equation was the announcement of 4th ed by WotC.

then you must have a very lucky FLGS that is not influneced by any other factors except the announcment of 4ED. Nor were they affected I suppose by online piracy of books either. Wait I guess this is point is not revalent to the discussion at hand either I suppose.

9. Other product lines not based on WotC's d20 system and 3.x did not have this sudden, large drop in projected sales. These other product lines are not anywhere near as popular as the D&D line, at least at my FLGS. (YMMV)

Then again those products are not D&D. Ask your FLGS store owner how well his 3rd edition gurps stuff is selling. Or how well is Old World of Darkness stuff is doing. Or how well his Hero System stuff will do when 6th Edition comes out.

I under your point. It just that you seem unable and unwilling to understand that their other factors at fault with the decrease of 3.5 products at your FLGS. Did the 4E announcment help of course not. Was it the only cause I don't think so and you have yet to prove it otherwise.

[DigitalMage]

Pagan Priest, if it is any consolation I understand you completely. Maybe I can re-phrase a few things to hopefully help memorax understand.

You acknoweldge that online sales has a large impact, but that is not pertinent to your specific argument as that impact was already taken into account by your FLGS.

The timing of the 4th edition announcement was poor because it was just when extra sales would be made for Xmas - this seemed to be the sole reason for downturn in December sales for d20 books.

E.g. Without online stores FLGS X could expect to sell 50 d20 products a month and twice that in December (just before Crhistmas).

However online stores do exist and have affected sales in the past and will continue to do so, thus the owner of FLGS X takes this into account in his forecasts.

Based on past sales that include the loss of sales to online stores FLGS can expect to sell 30 d20 products a month and 60 d20 products in December as it is Christmas. Consequently sales in January and February are usually only 10 per month.

Given that those predicted sales figures already take into account the competition of online stores, when WOTC announce 4th edition before Christmas and FLGS X actually experiences sales of only 10 d20 products in December (a third of a normal month and a sixth of what to expect for December) it is not unreasonable to believe the announcement was the major reason for the sudden drop in sales.
So the online sales are irrelevant to the argument as they have already been accounted for

If however WOTC had waited until after Xmas to announce 4th edition, FLGS X may have made its expected 60 sales of d20 products, but from then on saw a drop - however as predicted sales for Jan and Feb were only 10 a month a drop to say 2 products a month still isn't that big a drop than with the pre-Xmas announcement.
Thus despite a new edition announcement likely always causing a drop in sales, the timing can have a significant impact on sales.

Final point - you mention that you don't care whether another RPG announces a new edition as long as it doesn't hurt your FLGS's sales.

The key thing to understand here is that I assume d20 products are the largest share of your FLGS' sales, and that share is very significant.

E.g. Suppose FLGS X's sales breakdown is 40% d20 products, 20% World of Darkness, 10% Shadowrun, 10% Savage Worlds, 10% GURPS, 5% Call of Cthulhu, and 5% other.

Now if Chaosium announce a new edition of Call of Cthulhu - yes there may be a downturn in sales in that area, but as only 5% of FLGS X's sales are in Cthulhu, if sales drop by even 80%, then the total lost revenue as a proportion of entire sales is only 4% (80% of 5%).

So in this case the announcement of a new edition might cause a drop in sales, but may not significantly harm the FLGS - so a customer of that FLGS isn't annoyed and may not even notice.

However if d20 sales suffered an 80% drop in sales because of the announcement of a new edition then overall revenue would drop by 32% (80% of 40%) - such a significant drop (if not planned for by FLGS X) could cause such havoc with cash flow that the store may have to shed staff, start charging for table space to run games, or worse go out of business. As the announcement was the main cause of this, it would be reasonable for a customer of FLGS to be annoyed.

Therefore not all new edition announcements may cause harm to a FLGS's financial stability.

And this doesn't even take into account when a new edition won't invalidate previous edition products e.g. Cthulhu edition changes are minimal and most scenarios etc are largely compatible still. Similarly Conan 2nd Edition is apparently still largely compatible with 1st ed stuff, especially stuff with loads of fluff. However 3.5th and 4th are definately not compatible and this was known well in advance.

Hopefully I have understood the situation clearly and hopefully articulated it a bit clearer for others to understand.

Cheers!

[memorax]

Alright since it seems that if I don't agree with the anti-Wotc crowd I'm being made to look like an idiot this will be my final say. Since Pagan Priest keeps pointing to what he was told at his local FLGS I will do the same.

After waiting for the owner to stop laughing for a full 15 minutes after I showed him the last few posts on this thread this is what he told me I had to tone down somethings as I don't want to break any rules of the board.

The store owner does consider them a factor at his store because he has seen a drop in sales of D&D and other rpgs becuase of it. More often than not he has a customer try to get him to sell him a book at the online price. Which he can't match since he would lose money. He has also overhead more than one customer say "don't buy the M&M core book here buy it online at GR online store.

Sales of D&D were already down at his store even before the 4ED announcment. The only books he was guaremtted of selling for sure were the 3.5 core set, or any of the newer releases. Some of the books just stayed on the shelves as they were given bad reviews online at places at rpg.net or Amazon. Same thing happened when White wolf announced the New World of Darkness and Steve Jackson anounced Gurps 4E.

Gamers don't care when you announce a new edition. They stop buying a soon as new edition is announced. X-mas, fall, summer or spring they don't care. Also the way it works in retail you always hope to make more than you did the year before that the big "secret". If you made 1000$ X-mas 2007 you expect to make double that or more. It

The store owner also wanted me to ask what kind of logic DigitalMage is using when he says "not all new edition announcements may cause harm to a FLGS's financial stability". All new editions announced cause harm to a LGS financial stablity. Unless he has another reason that he can use to explain why the FLGS still has trouble selling older edition of other rpgs. Since according to him a new edition does not neccessarily hurt sales.

Also way too many gamers underestimate how much online piracy hurts LGS. The store owner has had to ban 3 customers because he caught them trying to scan books to make illegal copies.

I'm through with this thread. I'm being made to lok like an idiot. I could understand if I was not agreeing to PP main point. i do agree i just don't think the cause is all one sided. Not only that but I'm not being talked to but down to. Which is incredible lack of respect.

Anyway I don't care anymore PP,DM you can both stand in front of your anti-wotc/D&D banners while tearing off your shirts and swinging a flag that has a D20 with a line through it while stepping on the burnt remains of a 4ED core D&D all the while spouting your rhetoric. In the end all you are is just a microscopic drop that is the ocean that represents 4ED players. Now if you will excuse me i have a 4ED character to write up as I'm joining a new game this weekend

[DigitalMage]

Memorax - first let me apologise if the tone of my post made it seem as if I was talking down to you. That was not the intention.

I am a business analyst for my sins and when I see people not understanding one another (because one party cannot express themselves in a way that "clicks" with the other") I try to explain things in a different manner to bridge the gap - often using examples. When I do so I make no assumptions about what a person knows or doesn't know and so I can sometimes appear to be teaching a dog how to bark.

Alright since it seems that if I don't agree with the anti-Wotc crowd I'm being made to look like an idiot this will be my final say.

I don't think you are being made to look an idiot - I think perhaps you have become a little heated in this debate, but you seem to be articulate and know more about the RPG retail industry than me

Also, please do not think I am anti WOTC, in fact I am at the moment on a D&D kick, just finishing up writing my second D&D 3.5 Eberron scenario which I will no doubt be running at some conventions. I also purchased the d20 Freeport Companion even though I had also bought the Savage Worlds version as I wouldn't mind running it with d20.

In the past I have also been a Herald Level GM for the RPGA (mostly so that I could run Star Wars d20 RCR).

I admit however that I will not be making the transition to 4e - partly because my group doesn't like it (those that have read the PHB), partly because I don't like the direction it has taken (I have played a demo and read the pre-release info) and partly because of the 3 book model (I do not have the time or inclination to read 3 books just to run a game - hell I still haven't gotten around to reading the 3.5 Monster Manual yet!).

After waiting for the owner to stop laughing for a full 15 minutes

If nothing else I am glad I could contribute to providing a good laugh to your FLGS owner

The store owner does consider them a factor at his store because he has seen a drop in sales of D&D and other rpgs becuase of it. More often than not he has a customer try to get him to sell him a book at the online price.

By "them" I assume you mean on line retail stores. If so, then I completely agree. I don't disagree with you and I believe Pagan Priest doesn't either. We don't dispute that Amazon etc have significantly affected FLGS sales - however that fact wasn't relevant to the specific point that Pagan Priest was trying to make as it had already been taken into account beforehand.

E.g. given that FLGS sales will be reduced by X% due to online sales, when sales see a further drop by Y%, the cause of the Y% drop is unlikely to have relevance to online stores (the X% drop reflects that). Only if a new online store was announced, or Amazon starting slashing prices significantly could the further Y% drop in sales possibly be attributed to online retail.

Gamers don't care when you announce a new edition. They stop buying a soon as new edition is announced. X-mas, fall, summer or spring they don't care.

Again, I don't think this point is in dispute. However retailers definately do care (or should). If gamers stop buying in a month when a game store was expecting to make 60 sales, that is worse than if gamers stopped buying the month after when only 5 sales were expected.

Consumers on the other hand would probably be a bit annoyed "Damn I just bought 10 d20 3.5 books for Xmas and now WOTC annoucne 4th ed"

Also the way it works in retail you always hope to make more than you did the year before that the big "secret". If you made 1000$ X-mas 2007 you expect to make double that or more.

Fair enough, I am not as familiar with retail, but even so if your expected sales are based on that "double previous Xmas" rule, then the examples still stand.

The store owner also wanted me to ask what kind of logic DigitalMage is using when he says "not all new edition announcements may cause harm to a FLGS's financial stability". All new editions announced cause harm to a LGS financial stablity. Unless he has another reason that he can use to explain why the FLGS still has trouble selling older edition of other rpgs. Since according to him a new edition does not neccessarily hurt sales.

Unfortunately I failed to add the word "significant" to the bolded bit even though I included it in the "may not significantly harm the FLGS" bit further up.

But anyway, the point is if sales of a product that has a new edition announced doesn't make up a significant proportion of your sales, a store could likely suffer the loss in sales without suffering a serious financial blow, forcing them to shed staff or worse go out of business.

In my example, yes a new edition of CoC may mean FLGS X gets stuck with a few old edition products that won't sell, but 95% of their sales come from other RPG lines and so even having to sell those old edition CoC books at half price wouldn't cause FLGS X to shed a staff member.

Diversification provides greater stability following the old adage "don't put all your eggs in one basket".

Also, as I mentioned some new editions do not invalidate old edition sourcebooks, so at worse a FLGS may get stuck with some old core rule books. Look at Savage Worlds for example - the Explorer's Edition comes out - it costs $9.99 (of £5.99 in the UK) and its a great looking book. Sales of the old big hardcover Savage Worlds Revised would indeed probably drop if not stall. However sales of Deadlands Reloaded would likely not be affected as the rules changes are minimal, and if anything bring the new edition more in line with Deadlands Reloaded.

Similarly new editions of Call of Cthulhu don't usually have large rules changes - maybe a skill is added, or starting percentages go from 00% to 01% - but scenarios written for the old edition are still compatible and so sales of those would continue.

So the reason why "not all new edition announcements may cause [significant] harm to a FLGS's financial stability" can be due to the new edition product line being only a small proportion of overall sales, and / or the new edition not invalidating previous edition sourcebooks.

Also way too many gamers underestimate how much online piracy hurts LGS. The store owner has had to ban 3 customers because he caught them trying to scan books to make illegal copies.

Unfortunately the impact pf piracy is one of those things that can't easily be measured one way or the other. Yes, some people will download pirate PDFs and therefore not buy a book they otherwise would have, but also some people download the pirate PDF, but wouldn't have bought the book if the pirate PDF wasn't available; and finally there is even some evidence (though this wouldn't by any means be the majority of cases) where someone has downloaded a pirate PDF, liked what they saw and then bought the hardcopy because of that.

Anyway, again I don't think anyone is disputing that piracy does not have some effect on FLGS sales.

BTW where did the store owner catch the guys scanning the books - in his store? If so those players are either very stupid or have balls of steel

I'm through with this thread. I'm being made to lok like an idiot. I could understand if I was not agreeing to PP main point. i do agree i just don't think the cause is all one sided. Not only that but I'm not being talked to but down to. Which is incredible lack of respect.

So are you saying that the announcement of 4e was likely the primary factor in PP's FLGS's pre Xmas sales drop of 3.5 d20 products? if so, cool I think we all agree

Again, apologies if you felt I was talking down to you, I did not mean any disrespect.

Anyway I don't care anymore PP,DM you can both stand in front of your anti-wotc/D&D banners while tearing off your shirts and swinging a flag that has a D20 with a line through it while stepping on the burnt remains of a 4ED core D&D all the while spouting your rhetoric.

I will assume this is either ironic or said in the heat of emotion and will not take offense.

As stated I will likely be running D&D at conventions over the next few years (though it will be v3.5), I will continue playing D&D Forgotten Realms with my weekly group, continue buying M&M stuff (which is largely the d20 system), and hope to run Star Wars d20 RCR, Freeport d20 and get my mate to run Conan (which is d20). Given all that I probably wouldn't consider myself a d20 hater

As for the "rhetoric" I am spouting, I am not sure what that is - other than the fact that WOTC announcement of 4e could maybe have been timed a little better so as to not cause a sales slump pre -xmas. Mind you, I wasn't suggesting this was true or not, I was merely trying to articulate PP's opinion in a manner that may be a little more understandable (like I said I am an analyst - sue me:) )

In the end all you are is just a microscopic drop that is the ocean that represents 4ED players.

You are correct, in fact I would probably not be representative of 4e players at all as I have only played one demo session (then again I may play some more at conventions).

Anyway, I hope you don't harbour any ill feelings toward me or PP - it is just discussion after all.

Cheers!

[Pramas]

More often than not he has a customer try to get him to sell him a book at the online price. Which he can't match since he would lose money. He has also overhead more than one customer say "don't buy the M&M core book here buy it online at GR online store."

I find this curious because we don't offer discount prices on our website, except for special sales and the like. Buying M&M from us will save people no money and take longer than just buying it from their local store. We have this policy to support retailers who support us. Feel free to pass that on.

[memorax]

I find this curious because we don't offer discount prices on our website, except for special sales and the like. Buying M&M from us will save people no money and take longer than just buying it from their local store. We have this policy to support retailers who support us. Feel free to pass that on.

That is good to know. I think that because Amazon gives discounts on rpgs those gamers at the shop automatically assumed you would be doing the same.

[memorax]

DigitalMage I would also like to apologize as I think I let my emotions get the better of me. The funny thing is as I said I agree with PaganPriest is saying. The difference is that he is trying to make it sound like his FLGS is being screwed by 4E/Wotc. To a certain extent yes but the rpg industry has already been hurting. 4E/Wotc is just one of the sympthoms not the main cause imo.

Difference is I am willing to concede he maybe right on certain points. His main argument is that he was told by his FLGS that 4E/wotc was the cause of lost profits. And because of that his FLGS store can be wrong on no account. Or that somehow his FLGS is not being affected by other factors that are hurting similiar FLGS. I think if Chris Pramas had said something similiar he would probably say Chris is wrong despite being someone who has more knowledge of the industry than either of us.

To me anyway he is coming across as someone who had someone disagree with him and therfore since i don't agree with him I must be stupid and need to be talked down to. As I said I agree with him for the most part.

[DigitalMage]

DigitalMage I would also like to apologize as I think I let my emotions get the better of me.

Apology accepted, though no apology is really needed

His main argument is that he was told by his FLGS that 4E/wotc was the cause of lost profits.

This is where different readings of his post can cause quite different views, as I interpretted PP's FLGS was talking about a very specific drop in sales as opposed to a general loss in sales.

Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread any more so I will shut up now

[Pagan priest]

His main argument is that he was told by his FLGS that 4E/wotc was the cause of lost profits.

This is where different readings of his post can cause quite different views, as I interpretted PP's FLGS was talking about a very specific drop in sales as opposed to a general loss in sales.

Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread any more so I will shut up now

I do belive that I did acknowledge that on-line sales hurt brick and mortar stores, but that was not the issue I was discussing. In fact, I think I mentioned it a couple of times.

DM, you had it right when you talked about the number of books sold in a typical month, and a typical December selling triple that amount, but the 4e announcement trashing that to less than half of a typical month, and less than 10% of the expected December sales.

I do not know how many 3.5 core books are in a case, but my FLGS expected to sell out at least a full case worth of the 3.5 books prior to Xmas. Due to the 4e announcement, they only sold 3 or 4 of them. This is after factoring in all the other things that had been affecting sales, like on-line stores, piracy, etc, etc, etc.

Oh, and just for the record, I am not WotC bashing per se; so far, I actually like what they have done with the new Star Wars. I am just pissed that the new D&D looks lke unfixable crap.

[memorax]

Oh, and just for the record, I am not WotC bashing per se; so far, I actually like what they have done with the new Star Wars. I am just pissed that the new D&D looks lke unfixable crap.

Let's not start the anti-4E stuff again shall we.